Those who watched Friday Night Tights last night know what I mean. Jeremy and Az from HeelsVsBabyFace were going all in about Dave Fallone’s comments to the woman’s conference that were derogatory to the male fanbase.
Az’s argument boiled down to “I don’t want to spend my money on a product made by people who hate me.” While Jeremy disagreed and his argument boiled down to “I don’t care what they say as long as they deliver a good product.”
There were accusations of “SJW tactics” being thrown around. The question was brought up “well if their statements outside affect your decision, where does this stop?”
Personally I don’t agree with Jeremy’s position and here’s why:
1.) Delivering a good product is important but consumer relations is also important. If you walked into a restaurant that made the best steaks in the city and the chef came out, placed the steak on your table and lectured you on how you were a sick fucking bastard because you ate meat and called you all sorts of names, would you still keep coming back? It might be great steak but if you’re hated by the people who make it and are told “it’s not made for you you fucking Nazi” I don’t think it’s unreasonable to not return to the steakhouse. Worse yet imagine you’ve been a loyal patron to this place for decades and the owner recently sold the place to some megacorporation chain that makes pieces of shit steaks. You’re not asking to get your kissed, just be treated decently.
2.) This isn’t cancelling someone like SJW’s do. If Fallone went off on Twitter about how the country was a racist capitalistic patriarchy and that he was all for Bernie Sanders, that would be one thing, but he explicitly attacked the fanbase. When you attack your fanbase, that crosses into a completely different area. You should treat your customers with common decency. That’s not just about providing a good product. Have whatever personal politics you want, but leave your fanbase out of it.
3.) Silence can be a form of respect. Just to clarify I’m not saying silence is consent (because Jeremy brought that up). I’m saying it can be a form of respect. For example, let’s say you see someone walk into your store and you don’t like the cologne they put on. You can do your business with them without kissing ass. Just a simple “hello, how are you? What would you like? I got that here for you. That will be X dollars. Thank you, have nice day.” You don’t need to dig into them about the nasty cologne they put on but you don’t need to act like you’re smelling the best thing on Earth. Sometimes silence is a form of respect. The steak chef can think you’re a sick bastard, he doesn’t have to kiss your ass, but having common decency is not too much to ask.
I did see many comments that agreed with Jeremy and many that agreed with Az. I was hoping to get some discussion going between the two here since it’s rather difficult to have these discussions during a live stream. What do you guys think? Who do you agree / disagree with and why?
There is no right or wrong here, because it is not an argument about facts, it is an argument about your preferences for your money spending. Both points of view are understandable and both points can be strengthened and weakened by further argumentation.
I guess what made the FNT’s thing so drawn out and boring for me was the fact that, at its core, Az was just giving his preference without demanding anything while Jeremy was giving his preference, arguing Az is wrong, demanding Az changes his preference and using straw-maning, white noising, association fallacy and some kind of definition creep to do so all at the same time – seemingly without realizing it. Or he was just arguing for arguments sake which I also find exhaustingly boring.
I also think though, and I believe this is what Gary and the chat were getting rather frustrated with, is that I have a hard time believing that Jeremy’s position is entirely consistent. They brought up the example of Larson (and Jeremy countered that the reason he made those videos was because it would not be accepted for someone to state the inverse of what she said). I think a better example to bring up is just a simple consumer interaction. Jeremy doesn’t strike me as the kind of guy who puts up with bullshit. I have a hard time imagining him walking into a comic store, having his order tossed on the table, being told “here’s your order you fucking Nazi scumbag now give me your money and get out,” only to return to that same comic store to the same treatment. I also gotta disagree with Jeremy’s ideas that customer service people don’t care about customers. I worked service and if I had someone who had a problem, I actually did care that they understood what was going on and had a pleasant day.
Yeah, and as I said, there can be further arguments made for and against both preferences, especially if we follow them through to the end. But I aggree that Jeremy was really inconsistent, almost to the point of incoherence at times. For example: He said customer service is good product and that is the only thing he is interested in. He also said he doesn’t care about customer service. Which is it now? But that is exactly the defintion creep I was talking about. Customer service became the quality of the product, companies and creators (in the broadest sense of the definition) sometimes where one and the same, sometimes they weren’t, deciding what you yourself want to do with your money without making any demands to anybody else suddenly where SJW tactics. The problem with that is that all the arguments made with the standard definitions suddenly make no sense anymore, because the definitions have changed.
You can say you don’t care about customer service, only the product. That is fine and I can understand that, wether or not I agree. When you then follow that up with customer service IS the good product, you are incoherent and the question of agreement/disagreement plops off into the ether.
I agree with both of you and with Adz.
I said this during the stream but Ill say it again. Cowgirl Dave Felony is responsible for more retcons to established canon than he has been responsible for good product.
now to explain the super chat.
Anakin as per the books and TCW03 only earned knighthood in the final year of the war. CDF started his series at some random point in the war Seemingly early in the first year and gave him a fucking Padawan. Now Ive only watched some of the series but every episode I watched violated the law of canon. Every episode changed something that was done before and done better.
Clones trained by Mandolorians? Nah fuck that they are trained by random mercs. Clones required to learn 150 contingency orders and drilled on the list at all points of their training till they could recite any one of the 150 at a moments notice? Nah fuck that lets make it a CHIP that destroys their free thought. The Null Arcs in the books were some of the best spies and assassins. Nah lets replace those badasses with some fucks called the bad batch. There is a long list of retarded changes; ill stop there.
Then 6 months ago we learn from excerpts from the making of the limp jedi book that CDF was in the planning stages and pushing to fuck over Luke for Leia being the preeminent master (instead of just having both of them being masters as in the EU) then pushed for all of the Luke cut himself off bullshit. Frankly this vid clip that surfaced this last week was the final straw. As Adz said. This fuck has never given a fuck about SW. He has only given a fuck about how can he destroy the lore and fuck over the fanbase without us realizing it.
Well I figured it out a long time ago. He is just as bad as Krazy KK.
Generally speaking, as a consumer, I don’t boycott over a company’s political opinions or affiliations or lobbying practices. Most of the time, I just buy what I like.
I do boycott companies that make decisions or engage in practices that endanger consumers. For example, I refuse to buy Peter Pan peanut butter due to the roach feces fiasco years ago. I also refuse to buy Eukaneuba/Iams pet food due to the melamine contamination incident with the Iams brand years ago. In both cases, I have superior alternatives anyway, so this is painless and easy.
The same goes for Naugthy Dog and TLoUP2. I’m not ignoring TLoUP2 because of Neil Druckmann’s political or social opinions, nor because of what Sony did to content creators on YouTube and Twitter (sorry guys). Rather, I’m not buying the game because I know I’m not going to like the game. If the sequel had heart and soul featuring a story about people bonding through adversity and holding on to the smallest strand of hope to overcome daunting challenges — you know, like the first game, I would buy it anyway (sorry guys). But Neil Druckmann himself admitted the sequel was anything but, and early reviewers have confirmed that. So it’s a “bad product”, imo.
Regarding customer service, that sometimes does factor into my purchases if what I’m buying is a high-value item that I expect to last a long time, like a car. It depends on the product. I don’t care about customer service regarding any of the above companies, because in those cases the value is relatively small and the customer service in question would normally be a third-party, the retailer — Amazon or Publix.
The exception is intangible products — like phone or internet services. I those cases, yes, customer service vs. product quality probably weighs about 50/50 only because without reliability, there is no “product” (i.e., how often does the service go down, and when the service is down, how quickly is it restored). In this case, yeah, customer service is a big part of the product.
Bottom line, yeah, I agree with Jeremy, if his contention was “I don’t care what they say as long as they deliver a good product.”
P.S. About this scenario:
“If you walked into a restaurant that made the best steaks in the city and the chef came out, placed the steak on your table and lectured you on how you were a sick fucking bastard because you ate meat and called you all sorts of names, would you still keep coming back?”
I wouldn’t want to buy any food prepared by someone with such lack of respect and self-control, because he’d just as soon lace the food with something miserable. I think this is consistent; in this case the verbal assault lends to suspicions about the product, why I would no longer buy it.
I agree with Gary. Brie vids should be deleted.
Okay fair point about the restaurant example, but how about the Comic Store example?
Personally I don’t buy products if the person has gone on the record being super woke because a woke product is a shitty product. Now, if I hear positive reviews for it and find out that the film itself isn’t woke, then I’ll see it. Bottom line is that yes providing your consumer with a good product is important, but I expect as the person giving you my money to, at the very least, not be berated for supporting them.
I think a major point to bring up to is the fact that these people have infiltrated things we loved and twisted them. So for example they went into Star Wars – an established product with a loyal fanbase – then screwed it all up and told you that you were a toxic white supremacist Nazi if you liked old Star Wars. It’s like when Midnight’s Edge made their video about entitled Hollywood. You can say what you want on Twitter (within some reason) but at a certain point, especially when you start shitting on me for enjoying the established product when you’re the megacorporation that took over my favorite steakhouse, I’m going to be a bit perturbed over it.
People think Filoni was mocking fans, but he wasn’t when he says “star wars is for kids” guess what George has also said that in the past before too. When George and Filoni says “Star Wars is for kids” they don’t mean it is exclusively for kids, and they what they really mean is that kids can love it too so can older fans. So I don’t buy into the narrative that Filoni was mocking the fans. Yes, Filoni in this conference does come across to me as kinda of arrogant.
When Filoni also made remarks about Rey this conference was in 2016 before the the last jedi and a majority of the fans had an interest in Rey, and yes the last jedi destroyed any interest in Rey, but then again this conference was before the last jedi so I can see why he made those remarks. Plus KK his boss so I can see why he made these remarks in order to keep his job to continue to give us the fans good or decent star wars.
Plus when Filoni was talking about Ashoka and the reason people hated her at first he wasn’t saying people hated because she was a female. What he was saying was that people hated Ashoka because of her personality or how she was written at first, but then both “boys and girls grew to love her” so he wasn’t mocking male fans.
So unitl he starts making bad content this doesn’t really matter he’s done good so far so I will give the benefit of the doubt.
I’ll give you an extreme counter example.
The carbonated drink “Fanta” originated as a Coca-Cola substitute in Nazi Germany. Nazis said a lot of crap. And they did far, far worse.
I still buy this product they invented. I buy it for my husband now because it doesn’t contain artificial caffeine (which is made from urea – gross!). Bottom line, if the product is good and fulfills a need at a fair price, yes I’ll buy it.
Talk is cheap, and I have thick skin. I’m a capitalist.
Dave Filoni is a woke feminist. Not sure why people think he’s so great. The Clone Wars Cartoon show is trash. He created Ahsoka who’s only purpose is to serve woke feminist and young girls. It doesn’t make any sense that Anakin has a Padawan since he never really became a Jedi before he became darth vader. Dave Filoni was also involved in making the Mandalorian? That show is so overrated. It also has woke characters and a woke storyline. The leader of the Mandalorian’s is a woman. And Gina Carano beats the Mandalorian’s ass. And they turned the Mandalorian into a babysitter. The one episode I watched the only person in the village that knew how to use a gun was a woman. Dave Filoni is a woke feminist. Disney sucks balls.
All of Hollyweird = woke feminist. Some might hide it better but make no mistake about it they are all the same woke crap. Or they would not even be in Hollyweird. Also its gotta be about the product because what happens if we as a society stopped going to our favorite restaurants / fast food places / theme parks / bars etc just based on the political views of the owner(s) ? So many places would end up shut down. All of Entertainment is woke media & by all means ignore the companies that make it all about being woke such as Disney. But if we ignored everything based on being woke / political views ? Each product should be judged fairly on their own merit case by case. Otherwise might as well just have every restaurant be Taco Bell & Demolition Man inches closer & closer
If Ashoka’s only purpose is to serve woke feminist and young girls then why is she popular with so many fans both male fans and female fans? Also you do know that George wanted Anakin to have a padawan during the clone wars?
Technically TCW can override the EU because its at a higher tier in the canon so that’s why I don’t care about the lore contradictions or I don’t let it ruin my enjoyment of the show. George wanted Anakin to have a padawan in the show.
I’m not a big fan of David Filoni but I’m not that bothered by what he said 4 years ago. I skimmed through his twitter and it seems to all about Star Wars and on a positive note rather than a bunch of political whinging and fan bashing that we see from so many of these fools in the entertainment industry today. Mostly he seems to keep his yap shut and deliver a product that a lot of fans seem to enjoy. While he may be a bit of soyboy at times, you have to pick your poison when it comes to current Lucasfilm, and I am quite certain he’s a better option than whatever diversity hire Disney would replace him with if he left.