Disney Star Wars Canon issues.

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  • #169364

    I’m well aware that Lucas approved of EU content, but those are not his stories. At the time of the Clone Wars he still had the right to change any and all of what there was before in order to tell his own stories. He did that with the Clone War stuff that came out before with the books and comics to tell his own story. A lot of people don’t seem to realize that it was George himself that wanted to create a Clone Wars show, not Filoni. When he made that decision, all previous Clone Wars content was no longer canon. Sad yes, I enjoyed those novels and comics, but George had that right. So yes, anything that can be thrown away in an instant by the creator I consider to be fanfiction. Does that mean they are not good or that they are talentless authors? No, you can like any EU stuff you want. Most of it I would say is really good. I just don’t take anything not done by Lucas that seriously. They are just fun stories of what other people think happened to characters we love.

    Secondly, my point with George and The Clone Wars was that everyone that doesn’t like it blames Dave for all of its “problems” when George okayed everything that was put in it. They both sat in the writer’s room and discussed each arc. They would both be to blame if there is something in there that you don’t like. I, for instance, agree with you that Ahsoka should have died, but apparently George was convinced otherwise. (That or they changed the ending after he sold the company. We will probably never know.) Remember a lot of the great lines in the Original Trilogy were made up by the actors and George went along with it. While making Star Wars is a collaborative effort, he always has the final say. He became a little more stubborn during the prequels which, I think we can agree as one reason why they are worse than the Original Trilogy.

    To your point, of course the EU had George’s vision throughout it. It wouldn’t feel like Star Wars if it didn’t. I think we would both point to the Disney Trilogy for an example of that. I also agree that, as a whole, it is better than The Clone Wars, however, it did have many, many more years to grow into what we see today. It doesn’t change the fact that if George had not sold the company and then created a show following the events of ROTJ, he could have deleted years worth of canon material.

    To finish, my main point is that, while I’m not a Clone Wars fan that thinks it’s a masterpiece, I just don’t see how everyone can blame Filoni for “destroying” Star Wars canon when it was George’s ideas and stories, and since was so heavily involved.

    Also know that I am not a Dave Filoni apologist. I cannot defend many of his choices in Rebels from Thrawn to the helicopter lightsabers. Just know that the relationship with Dave and George was more like George tells him to do something and Dave figures out how to do it. For example, bringing Maul back. Filoni had very little control over what happened in the stories and George had to give permission to anything Dave said to do storywise.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by DarthGregious.
    #169376

    All fair points, but I will not budge on heaping more blame on Filoni than Lucas. Let’s table that for now, because I think that’s a circular argument between us. Someone else feel free to take that up, because I want to pose another question based on some of what you are talking about.

     

    Correct me if I am wrong, but you are basically saying that the existence of TCW cancels out all relevance of the EU, that you cannot take it seriously because Lucas was, by your definition, more heavily involved in TCW  versus your definition of how heavily he was involved in the EU. So if we run with that, then explain to me why the EU continued to run alongside TCW (s01-s05, 2008-2013, s06 was in 2014, but we all know it was done in 2013) releasing novels right up until the end when Disney purchased everything (Crucible 2013).  If it was so unimportant, to use your word not serious, then why did they bother doing the entire Fate of the Jedi series? Why work so hard to include TCW material in it to tie it together with TCW, thus basically legitimizing both?

     

    I refute your claim that Lucas as not as involved in the EU as the TCW. When I got my copy of Vector Prime, a disc came with it. On that disc was an interview with Lucas that stated he basically sat down in a room with all the authors for New Jedi Order series and told them what had to be done. I dunno, but that sounds like the equivalent of sitting down with Filoni or with the writers room and telling them how it had to be arc wise in TCW. And I’m sure there are interviews and evidence out there showing Lucas was likely involved with each author during the writing process of each book.

     

    Once more I put forth that Lucas put just as much love and attention into the EU, thus making it his own the same way whatever influence he had in TCW. Especially with the Fate of the Jedi, because TCW content was tied into it, which by your definition he was so heavily involved in constantly, therefore, Fate of the Jedi has Lucas’ own content in it, making it equally as legitimate.

    #169384

    Well, your original post was about how Filoni was shitting on Star Wars canon, but sure I’ll answer these too. All I said about EU Clone Wars material not being canon was because of the changes made to it. For instance, Adi Gallia is killed by Grievous in an EU comic, but in the show she is killed by Savage Opress. Changes to Mandalore was another significant change from Eu material. Of course when the Clone Wars came out there would be new EU stuff to follow these new story lines. But story elements like Ahsoka changed everything about existing EU canon in this time period. Its not that George was not involved; again, he was indeed involved in EU material too, its that the EU no longer lined up to what was in George Lucas canon.

    You can disagree with me about Lucas’ involvement, its not something either of us can definitively prove. However, until a story is in something George himself created, it cannot be considered true canon to me as he could change anything he wanted which would retcon an existing book or comic in the EU. You obviously have a deep love for the EU, and I do too, but until George puts it in his stories, I cannot say it is true canon since he can change whatever he wants.

    This is obviously in past tense since George cannot do this anymore but this is my view of it.

    #169479

    Statement of clarification: I feel I need to make this clear at this point in the conversation. When I’m talking EU specifics, I’m mainly referring to content post RotJ (excluding Shadows of the Empire and Revan). I was a reader of stories that pushed forward, not reviewed the past, ie. I was never a fan of prequals for any franchise, because I do not derive enjoyment about reading stories where no matter what I know what happens in the end. So I admit that I did not directly consume Clone Wars novels/comics.

     

     

    Okay. There is the fundamental difference between our perspectives. I do not prescribe to the notion of true canon or any term like head canon. Here is why. I was there when the OT was first in theaters, I watched the EU fill the void when there was nothing else, I didn’t want them but I didn’t totally hate the PT, and I consumed almost all forms of Star Wars media from novels/comics to videogames, etc (even Masters of Teras Kasi…that game was awful). So, I was on the EU train when it left the station with Zahn and I was there until it stopped with Crucible, though I never did read it because I was in mourning after the sale to Disney (because of that I was never snowed by Force Awakens…I predicted it would be garbage before it even came out).

     

    Because of my history with all of that, I do not draw strict lines of canon, though in most cases in other franchises I am a canon whore, but Star Wars is a special case if you ask me. For years the EU was all we had, and during this time Lucas gave it his seal of approval. For me, he did not need to write a line of dialogue or scene. He just needed to be involved in some way to influence it, and that was always enough for me. If Lucas said okay, then it was Star Wars. That is always my primary point when saying Disney Star Wars does not count, because George did not approve it, in fact we all know now he hated it. TCW, love it or hate it, was approved by Lucas, so it’s Star Wars, and the EU was approved by Lucas, so to me it was and always will be Star Wars. Those are my feelings and they will never change.

     

    Steering this back to Filoni, cuz that’s where it started, I pose this, now. TCW s07 was all Filoni. He had the opportunity to try and do a final better job tying TCW more cleanly to RotS. He didn’t. He still did the Filoni thing and made it basically ALL about Ashoka. There is evidence that Lucas was as heavily involved with Genndy Tartakovsky’s Clone Wars (which was freaking brilliant) so that it tied cleanly into RotS’s’ premiere. Filoni had a chance to do his own version of the preamble to the Battle of Coruscant with the “kidnapping” of Palpatine to really and totally link TCW to RotS so that anyone who felt like doing a full watch could go from TCW right into RotS and feel like they are fully in the story. He had a chance to make Grievous actually be a badass like Tartakovsky did instead of the cuck he was for six seasons in TCW. But no…we got more Ashoka story that people liked, but served no real purpose other than to showcase Filoni’s animated girlfriend as the greatest thing ever…until Wonder Rey.

    Filoni doesn’t care about canon. All he ever cared about was Ashoka. Making her the center of attention. That’s not good Star Wars, if you ask me.

    #169511

    1) George had EX Producer power on all the EU content. He forced changes to things he didnt like on the regular.

    2) I think the only comic I ever bought was Lukes wedding, as it was not in any of the books only the proposal was. I know there were things in the comics that were considered odd.

    3) Cowgirl Dave gave lip service to following canon; then proceeded to shit all over it in every conceivable way. Still never figured out why this was allowed. I would have fired him after the 1st story treatment. But then again George put Pablo the Cunt in charge of Continuity… That fuck was on the record as far back as 05 saying the EU had to die for his vision to go forward.

    4) The complete disregard for any existing canon is the basis for SJW marketing and ‘storytelling’. CDF is the king of this shit.

    #169572

    Well, with my perspective of George Lucas needing to be personally involved in anything Star Wars, we were both ahead of the curve on knowing The Force Awakens was garbage. And its fine that you don’t read the prequel material. I guess after reading it for years, and then all of it was basically de-canonized, including the older Clone Wars show, I realized that only what George himself puts out really matters. For all I knew, next he would come out with a show after ROTJ and then all of that would have to be changed as well. I would ask both of you above as this is the main point I want to get across: would you be ok if George had come out with a post-ROTJ TV show that threw out characters like Mara Jade and Thrawn for new characters? If you say no, then yeah, we can leave the conversation at that because we will never convince each other of the other side. For me, George’s word is final no matter what was in a book prior. That’s why I see no faults in The Clone Wars, but I’ll move to your other points for now. I have really loved the conversation by the way. Thank you for keeping it civil though we disagree. I was not around for the Original Trilogy in theaters until the 90s so that could be playing a part in our different perspectives.

    I would argue that, though he did approve them, there are things in the EU that George disagreed with (either at the time of release or after). For example, Darth Andeddu being able to keep himself alive through his spirit or the Yuuzhan Vong being immune to the Force. These are things that Lucas later said can’t happen. Because of this, you have to take any EU material with a grain of salt. George is known for picking from the EU for his own stories and slightly changing it to fit within his context.

    One of the biggest differences for The Clone Wars is what you said about Grievous, which I ultimately like. Believe me, I’m not doing this just to argue at this point, just hear me out. The first time we saw him was in a dark room and no one could see where he was coming from. They were afraid of the surprise of Grievous, not the act of fighting him. Remember, in ROTS Mace Windu says that Grievous will run as he always does, he’s a coward. This is what we hear about Grievous after he just ran from the Jedi on the Invisible Hand. This is obviously a pattern with him, something we see is true in The Clone Wars. So from the beginning Grievous has never been terrifying, it was only to a few Jedi at one point in the war. Later on in that series, Shaak Ti was able to fight both him and his guards alone. I think the main point of this is to show that, even if you have training with four lightsabers and can fight and kill mainly unprepared Jedi padawans (you see this in both Clone Wars shows), it is insignificant next to the power of the Force. The Jedi have a clear upper hand against Grievous in any fight if they are trained well.

    Lastly, I know you said earlier that you have not seen the final season of The Clone Wars, but I would ask, aside from Ahsoka’s story arc at the end, what more would you want to see? Shaak Ti facing Grievous again? You’re really left with only Ahsoka. No one seems to recall that the series didn’t begin with the outbreak of the Clone War. It began with Ahsoka becoming Anakin’s padawan. At the end of the day, she is the main character: it began and ended with her story. Now I really don’t like Dave adding her to everything else he is a part of, but for the Clone Wars, it makes sense for this to happen, even if I think she should have died.

    To me, I love the character of Ahsoka, so it is good Star Wars. Obviously, you are not as big of a fan of hers so you don’t think it is. Fair points for both of us.

    #169595

    the Yuuzhan Vong being immune to the Force. These are things that Lucas later said can’t happen. Because of this, you have to take any EU material with a grain of salt. George is known for picking from the EU for his own stories and slightly changing it to fit within his context.

     

    Let’s be accurate with this one. The Vong are not immune to the Force. The Force is blind to them…but, not to spoil anything for anyone, that is not the case when you reach the end of the New Jedi Order and we learn about the TRUE origins of the Vong and why they are blind in the Force, part of it being that they were in an entirely different galaxy where the Force probably did not have sway.

     

    To your point about would I blindly accept anything Lucas did prior to Disney, had he posted anything after RotJ. I’d like to say no, because I was really pissed at Lucas prior to the sale for the way he re-edited the OT blu rays. Okay, story time. True story, I shit you not.

     

    I’m in Costco. 2010 I believe, or whenever the first round of Star Wars blu rays came out. We all know this was the blinking Ewoks and Vader going  “Nooooo” during the throne room finale. These kinds of changes, among others had pissed me off royally to the point where I refused to give the man anymore of my money until he went sane and stopped messing with the OT any further. So here I am in Costco looking at the blu rays, and some random dude comes up beside me and starts looking at it too. I look at him and literally go, “You don’t want to buy that. Lucas has messed with it too much. It’s bad. Save your money.” Guy looks at me goes, “Oh yeah? Thanks man.” He puts it down and walks away.

     

    Yes. I Jedi mind tricked his ass. To this day I am proud of that moment.

     

    My point with that story is that I would not have blindly bought/consumed anything Lucas put out. The fact that he had abdicated making any new Star Wars for 20 years before the PT, farming it out to novels, comics, and videogames that were under his supervision to me meant he had no stories left to tell. That he understood his universe was in good hands and that the fanbase was happy and spending money. I harken back to when TCW came out, I turned up my nose at it and routinely said, “I pity kids who think this is what Star Wars is, today.” Looking back, I wish for those days again. I was pretty ignorant as to how good I had it as a Star Wars fan.

     

    Fuck you, Disney.

     

    Now back to Grievous. For your viewing consumption, I present these:

     

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    O2OPCOqhtiiSdlMwwt3Jds-_rP0mREw5Xc0AOcFmwNNLHwKsFDR63xxs8-ditYfFqQsDOLFlfArZrLrk8w0X0SxbIJ7zcCmJzrggIBNJmJm3eHeYJKBfjXKOEtBAo9_06qZhUcCwdx5bpHuFpUgQophNcvbdzRpwikIgoAanLA

     

    These were our first introductions to Grievous through Tartakovsky. A brutal badass that even two Jedi Masters had a problem dealing with. That second picture is basically what Mace Windu comes upon before he takes on Grievous during the “kidnapping”. Now, Mace totally owns Grievous, because he was a total badass as well. Especially with the final move that Force crushes Grievous’ chest, which again is why he’s wheezing when RotS begins. As you have pointed out, TCW erases Tartakovsky’s genius mini series, leaving the massive question for anyone who watches RotS after watching TCW?

     

    Why is Grievous wheezing? Filoni, the great caretaker and man who supposedly knows Star War so well who can give everyone such great content…what kept him from telling one more story at the end of s07, reimagining or not, of the events surrounding the Battle of Coruscant? Why not be a true Star Wars story teller and precisely and cleanly tie TCW to the movies, maybe with some extra dialogue or scenes prior to RotS beginning to clean up the ever present retcon fuck up that is how many times Dooku faced Anakin and Obi-wan thanks to TCW. Imagine if he had gone the extra distance to do that. A move like that would have bought so much good will with fans like myself.

     

    But he didn’t and never will. Why? My belief is because he cannot tell a real story, especially if his pet Ahsoka is not in it, because he has no heart for it otherwise. Now, that does not mean Ahsoka did not evolve and progress as a character. She did. I’m not going to take that away from TCW. She got plenty of development to the point where she earned her status as a powerful Jedi. She is not a mary sue. But for me, that does not change the glaring fact as I see it, that she was shoe horned into the Star Wars universe and because of that it opened the doors to countless retcons that mess with the PT and OT, which no matter what should and always be the core of the canon…midichlorians can still go fuck themselves…fight me.

     

    As for being civil, why wouldn’t I be? You haven’t called me names or anything, and I haven’t attacked you. We’re two fans having a fan debate. It’s what we’re supposed to be doing, because we’re different people with different experiences. No one is really going to win this debate, but that’s not why we’re doing it. We’re doing it to express ourselves and open the minds of other people to possibly sharing out opinions.

    #169605

    Ok, perhaps immune was not the correct word, but it gets the point across that the Force has no effect on them. George Lucas stated that it would not be the case in the episodes they were supposed to appear in in the last season of The Clone Wars before Disney cancelled the series. That would be a massive retcon to the EU, but an apparent necessary change for Lucas’ story. If I agree with that or not is immaterial. To me, whatever Lucas puts in is the story, period. I can choose not to like some things he does, but that is what is canon. That would also be the fault of Lucas himself, not Filoni.

    That’s also why I don’t mind the special editions as much. There are some things I don’t like about them either, but again, I think that George giving his vision is the most important thing here. It is what made Star Wars great to begin with, so who am I to say the changes are unwarranted? I would love to debate the Special Editions some time with you. I think that would be a pretty cool conversation. That is a hilarious story though.

    Anyway, with Grievous, yes, I saw the shorts when they first were on TV. Was he a cooler character in one episode? Yes, but he was already dialed back in the later episodes with him facing Shaak Ti. He did win, but that’s just because he had to kidnap the Chancellor. They then dialed him back even further when the Clone Wars show started, so I saw his debut as more of trying something out and seeing what worked about it. It’s one of the reasons that show was not canon by 2008 as well. Honestly, I never needed an explanation as to why he coughs. It was just a cool thing that gave a cyborg more humanity. Lucas is a genius at that, starting with Threepio and R2. With the Anakin line in ROTS, I cringe a little whenever I hear it now too, but I also cringe whenever Leia kisses Luke in Empire. That’s just a casualty of doing a TV show in this time. I can’t really defend it. He was obviously referring to their fight in AOTC, but I can get over that. It’s just one line of dialogue. Remember, Dave always said that Anakin and Grievous could never meet because of their lines together in ROTS, so he wasn’t completely stupid when it came to continuity.

    I guess the finale of The Clone Wars never bothered me because I always assumed it would be about Ahsoka’s story. Filoni has always said that he doesn’t like to redo battles or scenes that are in the films. That’s why Rebels did not do the Battle of Scarif even though the Ghost was present in the battle. So it didn’t come as a surprise that they did not show the Battle of Coruscant: you have that already in the film. If you haven’t seen the final arc in The Clone Wars, it does line up pretty well with the film. I don’t see how she retcons anything in the Star Wars films.

    Yep, I guess I was just used to the type of conversation I quit Twitter over. I much prefer this platform anyway. This website is great.

    #169607

    I guess my ultimate problem with Filoni haters is that they like to blame Filoni for everything they don’t like in it because he is affiliated to Disney Star Wars. They don’t realize how much influence George had over the series as a whole. It’s fine is you don’t like some of the choices, but you can’t think that Filoni made all these bad decisions behind George’s back or without his approval.

    #169613

    That’s also why I don’t mind the special editions as much. There are some things I don’t like about them either, but again, I think that George giving his vision is the most important thing here. It is what made Star Wars great to begin with, so who am I to say the changes are unwarranted? I would love to debate the Special Editions some time with you. I think that would be a pretty cool conversation. That is a hilarious story though.

     

    I’m not a hardcore traditionalist when it comes to the Special Editions. I’m fine with the majority of things changed in them, because I am a bit of an effects snob, but Han did shoot first…that change in New Hope is a load. So a discussion about that would probably be much more boring than you think. I can respect your stance that what Lucas does in any film could be considered law of canon, but it doesn’t change my opinion and that of many that he was out of his fucking mind with some decisions.

     

    So here is a twist and question I ask you to ponder. We have established in some agreement that up until Disney ruined our lives, all that was Star Wars, love or hate TCW/EU, lived basically in harmony. To be blatantly nerdy, there was balance in the Force. So here is my question to you.

     

    Why didn’t Lucas just blow up the EU? Why let it keep going?

     

    My answer. He didn’t because overall he was satisfied with it. His tweaks, as you continue to label them, in the end did not derail or destroy the EU. As the years went on and Lucas did the PT and TCW he began to insert more things here and there, but if you break it all down none of it destroyed the tapestry that was the EU post RotJ. Hell, most of TCW  problems fuck with PT as well as OT, and we all know the PT fucks with the OT as well in ways that force us to just accept it.

     

    And as an example, yes, the arrival of the PT totally makes Luke searching for history of his mother storyline in the Black Fleet Crisis utterly pointless, but I can shrug that off. Lucas probably got the idea to do Padme years later, and it was too late to fix that arc in that trilogy of books. I’m not so rigid in my love for the EU that I’m gonna throw a fit that the PT ruins that particular story of Luke’s. In the end Lucas never did 7,8, and 9 because he probably felt it was unnecessary as long as he was in control of the IP, because the fans were overall happy and spending money. It was only after Disney shit the bed and threw it all out that he probably then decided to pen ideas for 7,8,9 to try and salvage the feelings of the fans, since you yourself fall into the category of “If Lucus does it, it’s fine.” People like myself would never be satisfied, but I think Lucas was smart enough to know that and banked on living without my and those in my camps’ money, feeling those who live in camps like yours would be happy enough.

     

    Course we all know how that worked out. Great job, JJ…you fucking hack.

    #169621

    I would agree, I think that overall Lucas was very happy with the EU as a whole. He always knew that Star Wars would have to outlive him, that’s why he agreed to sell the company in the first place. With the EU he was able to have 100s of stories while still making sure nothing went too far away from his vision. There was also no need to get rid of the EU post-ROTJ because he had no intention of telling stories after that film. I just said I would be ok with it if he ever ended up doing that because it had already happened to me with the Clone Wars content. I’ll be honest, Jedi and Sith of old are the reason I love Star Wars so much, so books like the Darth Bane trilogy or KOTOR was always where I got the most enjoyment from the EU all the way up until the prequels. When so much of the Clone Wars content was scrapped for the new series I had to reevaluate how I looked at the EU as a whole. In 2008, it was a massive collection of stories which could all change at the whim of George Lucas. At that point, I looked at EU books as fun adventures rather than actual canon. I, of course, reevaluated again after the Disney Trilogy and the EU books post-ROTJ is my canon again, but it will never be as high as the Lucas stories.

    #169623

    I think we have reached a natural conclusion to our branch of this discussion. Others are welcome to keep going, but I feel there is nothing more for me to say.

     

    I enjoyed this, and it’s exactly the kind of debate I had hoped to have on these forums.

     

    Well done, and I look forward to next time.

    #169630

    Same here, really enjoyed this. See you around the forums!

    #169835

    Well we know that George was fine with Mara; right up till she became more well loved than Luke and Leia.

    That is what happens when the writing is better than what was in the origional films. Yes the OT is near perfect. But much of the truly memorable dialogue is adlib.

    #169846

    you can think that. Its your right.

    The fact remains that he has no concept of how to stick to existing continuity. He has no concept of how disrespectful it was to give a  padawan to a character that wasnt even a knight untill the waning months of the war then claimed his story started in the beginning of said war. He has always been more interested in his character than telling Lucas’ story.

    Yes that was before the rat. Now he simply has free reign to change everything.

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