I believe America was meant to be restricted by a common morality

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  • #288711
    Vknid
    Moderator

      I believe America, its laws and financial institutions were always intended to work with a common morality.  Now we can talk about whether that is Christianity or not but I think a common morality is what held us together for so long.  But with the radical stuff going on a thread has been frayed and pulled and now it keeps getting pulled, loosening and weakening the greater good.

      Our “social contract” was based on this common morality and even our form of capitalism was tethered to it.  But now that morality is not a common thread that binds us all the social contract is no longer agreed upon and our financial systems no longer tethered to any morality.

      And because the cohesion of “We The People” has been weakened, now the vultures in the goverment are taking the opportunity to take over.

      My point here is the only way to reverse what is going on is to identify all the radicals who do not share any morality beyond the ends justifies the means and make sure the law is applied to them in every way.  If we all work on this together we can solidify our common bonds and find plenty enough in common to come together.

      At the end of the day, most people mostly agree on most things.  But you would not think this is the case if you listen to the propaganda.

      .

      “We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”  –John Adams

      #289024

      That John Adams quote proves one point: that the American government and the constitutions were an error. Because groups of people will never be moral. And any government that hinges on religion is destined to die after that religion dies. Religions were always castles built on sand, because there is no proof of them being true. When I say today “God is a lie”, then you have no way of proving me wrong. I have no way of proving that I’m right either, but the thing is, if you base your claim to power on the existence of god, the onus of proof falls upon you, not me.

      Nietzsche and Ayn Rand recognized a century ago (or more in Nietzsche’s case). When Nietzsche said “God is dead, and we have killed him”, he wasn’t saying this in triumph. He said it as a warning. If you read the entire text, he warns that what men will replace god with will most likely be worse. Because the new morality will no longer be based on tradition that in one way or another worked in the past, but rather on emotions. Fear, greed, envy, and whatever keeps the ruling elite in power and the masses hungry, angry and stupid.

      If you read Nietzsche and Ayn Rand, they are like prophets. They predicted virtually every step of how the left took over. Idolization of victimhood, altruism as moral standard, enshrinement of mediocrity, celebration of ugliness. Nietzsche, Rand and Orwell knew what was coming, because they understood human nature like none other.
      Unfortunately, none of them really had any hope of victory. *spoiler alert*  Nietzsche told men to flee to loneliness and nature, but his work Zarathustra at least ends with people finally listening. In Ayn Rand’s novel Atlas Shrugged the few remaining good people hide behind some kind of shield in the mountains while the rest of the world collapses into a Mad Max style wasteland. And Orwell’s 1984 ends with the revelation that the government already controls the opposition to entrap dissidents, and the main characters are tortured, brainwashed and finally killed *spoiler end*

      Ayn Rand tried to define the ultimate common morality: objective morality. Had she been born 100 years earlier – we might have avoided the worst. But unfortunately by her time, the fate of the US had long been sealed.

      #289035
      Vknid
      Moderator

        Well I disagree with most of that first portion.  And you are incorrect on part of it.  America was not founded on a common religion so much as it was founded on a common morality. Those are 2 very different things.

        Groups of people can be moral, but ironically, I think it takes a belief in God to do that because only he lays out what is concretely moral.

        Clearly I disagree with you on whether God exists.  If you choose to believe that we are conversing here today because of 15 billion years of random events that occurred in our favor that is between you and God ultimately.  But I do not believe the belief of God is built in sand.  Organized religion might be but those are 2 different items.

        I do find it interesting that you claim God does not exist and religion is BS but your diatribe explains those things seem to be needed to hold society together.

        #289039

        When I say today “God is a lie”, then you have no way of proving me wrong. I have no way of proving that I’m right either, but the thing is, if you base your claim to power on the existence of god, the onus of proof falls upon you, not me.

        The debate of existence of god will never cease to exist since there will never be a proof to prove the one side correct, but it’s true that the burden of proof should be on people claiming god does exist.

        As a sidenote, I always find it funny that some right wingers claim to be all about facts and logic and evidence and make fun of ”sheeple” wearing masks and being vaccinated, yet literally kneel to an omnipotent dude who can’t be proved to ever exist, and also base some of their wicked and out of touch opinions on the Bible like ”things should be like this because in the Bible, it says so”.

        Whether you believe in god or not I don’t really care, if you praying or believing in god gives you confidence or makes you feel better then more power to you, but if you try to push it on other people like a vegan and start spazzing out about being gay is sinful because ”the bible said I should think so” then it’s an issue.

        #289040
        Vknid
        Moderator

          “Whether you believe in god or not I don’t really care, if you praying or believing in god gives you confidence or makes you feel better then more power to you, but if you try to push it on other people like a vegan and start spazzing out about being gay is sinful because ”the bible said I should think so” then it’s an issue.”

          You clearly do not understand the people you love to talk poorly of because you use a very broad brush to paint them all in a similar fashion.  Sure, it’s very easy to shove everyone with whom you disagree with in a box and label it as bad.  But just because it is easy does not mean it’s right and that goes for anyone on any side doing such a thing.

          So you are fine with people who believe in God.  But only if their God agrees with you.  Got it.

          #289041
          Vknid
          Moderator

            “Whether you believe in god or not I don’t really care, if you praying or believing in god gives you confidence or makes you feel better then more power to you, but if you try to push it on other people like a vegan and start spazzing out about being gay is sinful because ”the bible said I should think so” then it’s an issue.”

            You clearly do not understand the people you love to talk poorly of because you use a very broad brush to paint them all in a similar fashion.  Sure, it’s very easy to shove everyone with whom you disagree with in a box and label it as bad.  But just because it is easy does not mean it’s right and that goes for anyone on any side doing such a thing.

            The thought process that people are only OK to believe in God so long as you personally agree with the tenants of that God seems to indicate you think very highly of your own opinion.

            Personally, I believe in God regardless of whether you approve or not.  Your approval of my faith nor in God’s existence is not required. Do I wish you would have some faith and believe in your soul so that you can not perish?  Absolutely.  But no one is going to force you.  To do so would contradict the free will God gave you appear to adore so much.

            #289057

            I think you’re missing a few points Vknid.

            “You clearly do not understand the people you love to talk poorly of because you use a very broad brush to paint them all in a similar fashion. Sure, it’s very easy to shove everyone with whom you disagree with in a box and label it as bad. “

            These are the key points that need to be solved for religious conservatives and libertarians to get along.

            We use a broad brush not because we believe all religious people to be lunatics who will burn heretics at the stake. Absolutely not. But for centuries good religious people allowed the maniacs to be in charge.
            Conversely, religious people wield the same broad brush, when they bring up the atrocities of Communism each time they debate Atheism. Een though someone like me is ideologically as far away from Communism as you are from the Spanish inquisition (at least I hope you are).

            Why do we do this? Because we don’t trust the other side with being in charge, because it turned out badly before.
            That’s why we reject religion as foundation for society.

            “So you are fine with people who believe in God. But only if their God agrees with you. Got it.”

            Nope. God agreeing or disagreeing with us is immaterial, because we don’t believe in the existence of a god. What isn’t immaterial is when religious people try to force god’s morality upon us.

            But by that same token, we can’t push our morality on you. So it brings us back to Ayn Rand and even your opening statement. A common, objective morality must be defined by which society can function *despite* people not agreeing on important parts like homosexuality, abortion etc.
            It may very well be impossible. I don’t have an answer to how that would work. I know the solution isn’t to put either group in charge and hope for the best. And it surely isn’t “democracy” which is nothing but mob rule. In the end, I think a permanent separation and then coexisting as good neigbors would be the smartest thing to do.

            Not that it really matters, since the communists won already anyways.

            #289126

            Personally, I believe in God regardless of whether you approve or not.  Your approval of my faith nor in God’s existence is not required. Do I wish you would have some faith and believe in your soul so that you can not perish?  Absolutely.  But no one is going to force you.  To do so would contradict the free will God gave you appear to adore so much.

            of course you don’t need my approval and I don’t care if you are religious and what religion you believe in as long as it doesn’t hurt other people.

            My opinion on religious people depends on how far they are taking it. If they believe in a god, go to church and pray etc., I couldn’t care less.

            If they believe Trump is the reincarnation of Jesus and Dark Brandon the reincarnation of the devil who unleashed covid to control the world then I think you need help but at least you aren’t causing harm.

            If you go around blowing up buildings, murdering people who made fun of your god or act out to strip gay people from their rights because ”the book said so and the book is always right” then I think you are just simply scum and a sheep.

            But that’s just my opinion.

             

            #289128
            Vknid
            Moderator

              I don’t disagree really with anything you said there.  But there are many hypocrites in the world and many who are thrilled to do bad things to people and will use Religion as an excuse to do so.  It’s not the belief in God that is the issue ever, it is the adherence to a organization that generally gets folks in trouble or leads them astray.

              But much of what you say seems to mix politics and religion and while that does happen a little to that extent that is really the exception and not the rule. But that is what the news will always show you because it causes people to click.  Same reason why often times the gay folks or leftist folks you see on TV are the insane ones.

              #289141

              Quite true. That’s why I tend to mix in politics, because religion – much like lgbt, race and virtually any other idea is / was / can be used to justify oppression.

              I totally don’t mind religion on a private level. It’s when crazy people organize, that bad things happen (and unfortunately, crazy loves company and they are quite adept at organizing). Be they Christians, Muslims, Atheists, lgbt, environmentalists, vegans, etc.

              #289144
              Mustangride1
              Moderator

                I believe America was meant to be restricted by a common morality

                It was not, Plain simple unquestionable, if it was then we would have had a “State sponsored religion or at minimal accepted”  Our founders were adamantly  clear on that point. That is the point of the First Amendment.

                Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

                Anyone who understand the 13 colonial ordinances would understand they were all against any singular form of religion and even morality code. Those Ordinances dated back to the mid-1600’s.  The The Massachusetts Body of Liberties  (1641)  had many of the same principles in it as does our Amendments and then some. When you read it and all the other Colonial ordinances you cannot come away with anything but a deep respect for our true founders, the early colonist.

                They left Great Brittan to escape other mens (King and Parliaments)among others> morals and ethical codes, they wanted to be free and for all free-men to be free to do as they saw fit under a very  Liberty Heavy system of laws.  Chiefly to practice religion or even not as a person saw fit. Our founders understood all to well Religion could be perverted and often was especially when hand in hand with the state.

                The morality if anything in all our funding documents was that is was best left up to the people on a local level as to what was to be allowed. They certainly had rules and regulations for fairness. Some states took it further and created “Blue Laws” which goes against all morality and even our founders wishes.

                People who put any “God” in to a law or their belief i should say in to a law are in fact putting their morals and ethics on others, the very thing our true founders left Britannia to escape “Religious Persecution”  religion is the devils tool, make no mistake on that. More people have died because of religion than any other reason in history.  Now I am not saying Believing in God or having Faith is a bad thing. I believe in God, I have a faith in God. BUT I HATE RELIGION. It and any morality springing from a religion is doomed to fail as it imposes a set value of morals and ethics by one group that many others will not have or abide by.

                Our nation was founded on laws that were Just to all, not based on a Morality of religion but simply on fairness as it was seen at the time. Proof of that is as I stated above. Many of those ordinances became parts of our Constitution and Bill of Rights. They have stood the test of time since 1641 (382 years).

                Some have been revised and amended, but never stepping backward. They were done to give even more Liberty to more Peoples of our Nation. Makes me Proud knowing the History and why I have faith in our country and laws, even in these very trying times.

                • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by Mustangride1.
                #289147
                Vknid
                Moderator

                  Religion and morality are not the same thing.  You can have a moral belief in common without the same religion.

                  Capitalism and our goverment were invented to be constrained by morality.

                  “We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” –John Adams

                  #289151
                  Mustangride1
                  Moderator

                    You put Religion in to this discussion in your first paragraph, second sentence. So when people talk about this subject it is your own words who brought it in.

                    Taking Business first.
                    Capitalism and Government were not invented to be constrained by “Morality”. Capitalism in itself does not support morality in fact it is the complete opposite as it promotes competition which will and always has spawned a atmosphere of “Do what you have to, to win or get ahead of your competition by whatever means you have to, and don’t get caught doing some of them” That is the hard cold blunt truth, business has no Morals or Ethics at its core as any good business person will do what they can in the end to protect their business. Especially as most business are also the income for the person and their family, Morals and Ethics go out the window when protecting your family. If you do not believe that, im sorry but its the truth.

                    Government now.

                    Government makes laws to keep things equal, yet throughout history we have seen laws are not always moral and in fact discriminatory in nature and certainly not equal. Even hinting government has ever been truly moral is laughable, Government is self serving to government. Our own government has a host of laws and regulation that actually harm business and in the end the consumer “you and I” by costing us more money at the end product stage.  Heck the Second Bill signed in to law was the Tariff act of 1789.

                    What they are constrained by is getting caught doing something that angers the consumers/voters. Even then most will just blush but continue on.

                    #289184

                    “Capitalism in itself does not support morality in fact it is the complete opposite as it promotes competition ”

                    Who says competition isn’t moral? I’d argue it is moral, because competition is the mechanism by which life evolves and improves – since the very first single cell organism.
                    What you’re describing, the cutthroat method, getting ahead by any means necessary, usually requires manipulation of the market.

                    I.e. we have two competing farmers, one tries to get ahead by salting the field of the other. That is not capitalism. Captialism doesn’t give you the right to do harm unto others or hinder others in their productivity. Competition is strictly productivity based. It’s like a race. You don’t win a race by shooting your competitor in the leg.

                    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by Wisdom.
                    #289192

                    “Competition is a sin.” – John D. Rockefeller ——————- “At the time (1883), Rockefeller and Rothschild were competing as the world’s foremost oil and banking barons. But the two competitors each finally realized that competition was not a good thing.

                    Oil and banking in the quote.

                    Big Tech, Big Media, Big Aggro (farming, Monsanto), Walmart, etc. Big Beverage.

                    How many people have been de-banked? Without violating any rules.
                    How many people have been de-platformed? Without violating any rules.

                    IMO, the whole woke thing is just another way to reduce competition.

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