People have to believe in imperfect things, faith is required

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  • #288878
    Vknid
    Moderator

      I don’t care if you believe in the Lord or you straight up believe in science only.  You MUST place faith in either thing. Now you might say, that’s not true science is proof.  Is it always?  How do you know.    Do you believe Pluto exists?  How do you know?  Have you seen it with your own eyes or do you place faith in others who say they have seen it?   Clearly that is a simplistic explanation but you see where I am going with that and all you must do is look to the COVID info stuff to understand that “science” can be wrong and or manipulated and sometimes both. Science should ALWAYS be questioned.  To stop doing so is to assume we are right and more often then not we aren’t.

      My point to this diatribe is anything you believe in you will have to place faith in because you will never have perfect proof of anything.  So if you are waiting for perfection before you believe in something you will believe in nothing or no one. And I believe that is a frightening way to live.

      Personally I place my faith in God.  Do I have some perfect proof he exists?  No, faith is required and that I believe is intentional.  In all honesty, for me, logically he has to exist because of science and not in spite of it.

      “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” – Hebrews 11:1

      #288932

      I’ve known since I was a kid that science is about asking questions to learn more about the world and universe. If we can’t ask questions there is no science.

      #288933
      Vknid
      Moderator

        Exactly, that whole “the science is settled” BS is absolutely anti-science and anti-logic.   Science is never settled as we are often times if not most times wrong.

        • This reply was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by Vknid.
        #288935
        DarthVengeant
        Premium

          I question everything. Always have, but even more so as I get older. I would annoy the heck out of god because I would question everything. including him. It’s just how I am.

          #288956
          Vknid
          Moderator

            @DarthVengeant

             

            You would not annoy him.  He gave you your mental prowess and faculties.  He gave us an entire universe to explore.  I am sure he wants us to use the brain power he gave us to look into our world(s) and even him.  While Faith in God is required to fully believe in him there is more than ample evidence of his existence in my mind.

            I don’t believe science and God are mutually exclusive.  Many think because there is science there can be no God.  The way I see it, because there is science there is a God because it points to him.

            That’s just as I see it, I am not trying to forcing anyone to believe the same.

            • This reply was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by Vknid.
            #289026

            I think you’re confusing faith with believing people. When someone tells you the stove is hot or there’s a hot wire on some electrical appliance, it doesn’t require faith to not touch it. Within our brains, a million little calculations go off, calculating everything from the probability of that person lying to us to the risk/reward of touching the appliance to find out.

            If the person has nothing to gain from us not touching the stove, that increases the likelihood of their statement being true, and them having our best interest in mind (they can still be wrong of course).
            Conversely, if a person (or instituation) has something to gain from us believing them, then that increases the likelihood of their statement.

            Motivation is key. If I meet a mold inspector at a PTA meeting and he tells me “hey, you should check your apartment for mold, you probably got it, I can do it for 3000$”, then I’ll probably be a little suspicious. Once people want something from you, chances are they have their own best interest in mind and not yours.

            That’s basic human nature.

            Hence why I don’t trust religion and governments, because they arguably want the most from me: my submission. Submission of my self-interest and of my capacity for rational thought, trusting my senses, instincts and my entire being. And they don’t offer anything tangible in return. Instead, they back their demands up with threats. Governments by locking me up like an animal if I don’t fork over my money, religions with sick sadistic torture fantasies – conveniently in the next life.

            That alone tells me that both are lying.

            That’s how criminals, mafias and dictators get people to submit. “Submit else you’ll get hurt.”
            That is evil.

            Of course there are religious people who legitimately believe and try to “save” others from that horrible fate they are so afraid of. I have no doubt. But most, I suspect, just seek to placate their own doubts by having others agree with them. Much like people who are in an awkward social situation. I.e. a plane arriving at the wrong gate, and suddenly no one knows how to get to the connecting flight. Even those who figured it out will look around to confirm that others came to the same conclusion and will feel safer in their path once the entire troup of lemmings heads the same way.

            Again, human nature.

            Science isn’t a religion, it’s a method. That’s why scientific results are always questioned, and scientific proof requires thorough testing. Even then it’s not set in stone.

            Recently, governments have tried to turn science into a replacement religion. Questioning it is has been deemed heresey, I mean “disinformation”. Also any scientist not submitting to the government agenda will have their funds cut and permissions revoked.

            Which is why I, like many, have begun looking more closely at recent scientific studies, since it’s now being used to get something from me.

            But that doesn’t mean that believing that Pluto exists is some kind of act of faith. Theoretically, anyone with a big enough telescope can prove it exists. There’s also no power claim based on Pluto’s existence. If the existence of Pluto was somehow tied to a tax levied upon me, then I would be most suspicious and would require a more tangible proof.

            In summary:
            -It DOES NOT require an act of faith to believe scientific findings if these are 1. consistent and probable within our perceivable reality and 2. not used to justify taking something from you or demanding your submission.
            -It IS an act of faith to believe in anything (religious or science) that is 1. inconsistent with our perceivable reality  2. used to justify taking something from you.

            Especially if the latter comes with a threat. That’s why I *know* religion is a lie. Because I can observe human nature, and the aforementioned billions of calculations in my brain come to the conclusion that religion uses the method of crooks to peddle stories that are inconsistent with perceivable reality to get me to submit to the rule of people who most likely do not have my best interest in mind and who want my stuff. Atheism doesn’t require faith in there not being a god. All it takes is knowledge of human treachery. Of which there can be even less doubt than of Pluto.

            #289036
            Vknid
            Moderator

              I disagree entirely.  Spin it however you wish but anytime you believe in something you cannot prove for yourself whether that be the Lord or Pluto the almost planet you are utilizing faith.  I am not saying in either case it is bad or a negative but we must realize it for what it is.

              You seem not to be able to distinguish God from false religion or shysters.  How sad for you.  Just because there are some salesmen who are willing to lie about anything to entice you to purchase a car does not mean the car does not exist.

              Walking through this world thinking you are end all be all of everything must be fairly depressing.

              The thing you need to account for is while there IS negative human nature there is also positive human traits.  And those generally come about when we deny our nature and do what is right in spite of it.  There is plenty of that in the world, no, you don’t hear about it as often as bad stuff because while evil tends to trumpet it’s existence good by nature keeps to itself because it does not desire no require attention.

              “I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t, than live as if there isn’t and to die to find out that there is.” –Albert Camus

              #289064

              I fully disagree on your definition of faith. Faith is not the same as a probability calculation.

              The existence of Pluto is consistent with perceivable reality. It doesn’t go against the laws of physics or mathematics or conservation of mass, etc.

              The existence of god is not consistent with our perceivable reality. Same with an afterlife. Those things require faith, because they stand in contrast to our entire life experience and all our collective scientific observations. Faith is not the same as believing in something you personally have no proof of or believing in what another person tells you.
              Faith is belief absent of any evidence.

              Taking up your example of a salesman: You’re right, I can’t distinguish between god and his salesmen. True, I can’t know they don’t really have a flying DeLorean in the back of their lot as they promise me. If it exists, good for them, bad for me for missing out. But I don’t believe the flying DeLorean exists. Only hard evidence can change that. Without proof of ownership, it’s very hard to make a sale. Good salesman or bad salesman.

              If you read Nietzsche, you’d know that man is not the end of all things. There’s the Übermensch. And on the very last page, Nietzsche reveals that the Übermensch is only one evolutionary step of many.
              Evolution never ends. Ideally, we would get better and better, one day even immortal, and even then seek out constant new knowledge, colonize the universe and eventually space. Space is endless. The adventure would never end. Now THAT is a positive outlook. By contrast, I find religion’s obsession with death and afterlife to be depressing and grim.

              Which brings me to Camus. He uses a lot of words to say he’s a coward. It’s like the sailors of old who feared they would drop off the “edge of the earth” if they sailed too far (yes, that was an actual fear and one reason why Columbus voyage was so imporant. They sailed West with much of the crew fearing that edge).
              I’d rather be Columbus than Camus.

              #289065
              Vknid
              Moderator

                “The existence of god is not consistent with our perceivable reality”

                I disagree with that 100%.  That viewpoint is based on your perception.  You look around and see nothing but the end result of evolution and tectonic movements. I look around and see beauty that I believe could not at all have formed of chaotic randomness.  Sure there are such things as evolution and tectonic motion and environment but I believe those were God made/guided processes.

                If you were walking through the woods and found 10 stones fashioned in a circle.  Would you think someone put them there in that way?  Or that through chaotic randomness they were formed there?  I am sure you would answer, well someone put them there.  So 10 stones in a forest had to be intelligently placed but the entire universe around you which had to be just so, so that you could be here right now was entirely random.

                But hey, you live your your world as you wish I will do the same.

                #289101

                I don’t fault you for looking at the world in its complexity and going “This has to be designed”. I disagree with the conclusion personally, but I can see how one might arrive there. The anthropic principle attempts to explain the question of complexity, but I would agree that it’s probably the best argument for a creator theory.

                The thing is: we don’t find 10 stones in a perfect circle. When you look at nature, it’s chaotic.

                But I was actually referring to creation itself. That goes against the laws of conservation of mass and energy, which means god as an entity would have to exist outside of our perceivable physical reality. Same with the afterlife. Heaven is not on some cloud in the sky or some planet in the solar system. Hell is not under the earth’s crust. It has to exist… somewhere? But not in our universe. The supernatural aspect is what requires faith.  Looking at our world and going “this looks like intelligent design”… not sure if it requires faith. The idea that the very first DNA was designed doesn’t go against the laws of physics or biology. That’s a theory. One with sparse evidence, but likewise there isn’t much evidence for how the very first DNA came to be randomly either (yeah, abiogenesis, molecular evolution of carbon molecules to amino acids and all that, but so far they haven’t been able to replicate how an amino acid became a cell nucleus). Despite not believing in it personally, I’m all in favor of pursuing the intelligent design thesis and seeing where it leads.

                #289116
                Vknid
                Moderator

                  “which means god as an entity would have to exist outside of our perceivable physical reality”

                  Well yes, absolutely.  The Bible is sparse on details of Heaven and Hell and otherwise because I believe those are things our little human brains cannot even conceive of.  Heaven is laid out for us to understand that as much as this life matters to us now, once you arrive there (and possibly hell), this current existence means almost nothing.  It’s like if you ate peas everyday since you were born and that’s all you knew.  Then one day steak was available.  Would you even think of peas ever again?

                  This reminds me of the story in the Bible where the Sadducees try to fool Jesus into contradicting Jewish law.  Luke 20:27-40, which in essence says if a woman is married multiple times (as per Jewish law) because all the husbands die.  On the day of the resurrection when Jesus returns, who’s wife would she be?  The answer is not some convoluted mess, it’s just that well there would be no such thing at that point so none of that would matter anymore.  I encourage you to read it, I am sure I am not doing it proper justice because it goes far deeper than I just did.

                  As far as creation, sure, we as humans understand some tiny bit of God’s world.  But because we do does not mean he did not create it.  As I see it everything before us is a giant domino effect set off at the big bang “let their be light”.  In essence then entire universe has to exist just as it does with all it mechanics and processes for us to be here right now.  Why would God go through all of that for us to exist?  Love.

                  At the end of the day you and I ponder the same things. Why are we here, what does it mean and what was before the big bang.  We just arrive at different answers.  But I think to believe that it happened randomly out of no where and then 15 billion years of more random happened and poof we are here. Seems a silly thought to me.  This brings me to the rocks.  So you would believe a few rocks could never form in a circle randomly but you believe the entire universe did.    Again, seems like a silly thought to me.  But I am sure you think “the magic man in the sky” is silly.  If the belief was that basic it would be but it’s not.

                  Just my 2 cents, not trying to force anything on anyone.

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