The Jedi are Evil

Tagged: #starwars, Jedi, Sith

This topic has 21 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 10 months ago by Joseph.Fara.

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June 20, 2020 at 12:45 pm #168005
Marka_Ragnos_
This is something I’ve thought about a lot when watching the prequels and particular seeing Anakin develop eventually into Darth Vader. This is a quote from Ep3 during his fight with Obi Wan that I never forget. Obi Wan says ‘Anakin Chancellor Palpatine is evil!’ and then Anakin says back ‘From my point of view the Jedi are evil!’

Who else has actually tried to analyze the validity of Anakin’s statement right there? The more I look into it the more I honestly agree with him. The more I try to rationalize Anakin’s point of view the more it feels justified that he would abandon the Jedi and turn to the dark side. First they take him away from his mother when he is only 9 years old. That would be traumatizing to any child. He was forced to grow up and live without the support of his own mother. Originally they refused to train him because he was too old. The Jedi only take in very young children. Why? Because children are stupid and will believe anything you tell them. The reason the Jedi refuse to train older people is because the older you are you have more experiences and thus have your own developed worldview. This can likely clash with the Jedi’s extremely narrow and simple minded view of the world and thus they can’t have that. The Jedi encourage group think and shun those who think for themselves. The Jedi fear anything different from their own view. Which is ironic because Yoda says fear leads to the dark side.

After Anakin leaves his mother the other Jedi shame him for missing her. They say you shouldn’t grow attached to people like that. The truth is that’s just human nature. It’s perfectly normal for people to grow attached to other people they care about especially family members. Then after she dies he is continually shamed for grieving her and is told to just move on and let go. Again that’s just not reasonable. The dude just lost his mother. Give him some time and space to deal with it on his own and allow him to confide in someone without getting berated for having normal human feelings.

I also thought how silly it is that they refuse to give Anakin the rank of master. I never understood why until I thought about what makes Anakin different from other Jedi. If you watch the Clone Wars and watch Ashoka grow and evolve over time they are both really a lot alike. They are both snarky, sassy, dislike of authority, takes matters into their own hands, even down to the end they both leave the order. Granted Ashoka doesn’t go full dark side like Anakin does but her reason for leaving is also justified as well. She can’t trust the Jedi. They are manipulative and played with her head and were going to sentence her for a crime she didn’t commit. Ashoka turned into a mini Anakin who actually made her own decisions and was proactive. I think the Jedi feared this would happen. They feared Anakin’s personality would rub off on to his apprentice which is why they forbid him from being a master in the movies.

One final argument is another quote Obi Wan says earlier in the fight. He says ‘only a Sith deals in absolutes’. I don’t know if Obi Wan actually believes this or if it was just bad writing on Lucas’ part but that quote just doesn’t work. He contradicts himself in his own statement. Obi Wan is a Jedi. But here he says only Siths deal in absolute statements or viewpoints. Which in itself is an absolute statement to say that. Which means Obi Wan is thinking like a Sith based on his own logic of what a Sith is. It’s just a really weird thing to say that’s always bothered me and I think it’s proof of the Jedi’s group think mentality of shunning and disowning anyone who dares to differ from their one point of view.

This has just been my rant on why I don’t believe the Jedi are as good and righteous as they think they are. I know it was long but if you did manage to get through all this I would love feedback on any of my points. Curious to see who disagrees or agrees with me. When it comes to the OT I was always a much bigger fan of Darth Vader than Luke so I am partial towards Anakin but even still trying to rationalize his outlook it makes him very sympathetic and honestly I probably would have done the same thing as him if I had visions that someone I love would die. I would do whatever I could to save them. These are all just my thoughts though I’d love to see what other people think of this ^^
June 20, 2020 at 1:26 pm #168035
Verkano
Your evidence is not wrong. There are multiple Jedi, especially in the Clone Wars series, who’s blatant arrogance in all situations makes me cringe *cough*LuminaraUnduli*cough*. However, as evidenced by Yoda’s conversation with Mace Windu and Obi-Wan in “Attack of the Clones” indicates, the Jedi leadership were well aware of the hypocrisy of the Jedi, and I’m sure that, if they had more time, they would’ve been able to steer the Jedi Order away from these issues. It would’ve taken a lot of time, however, as the Jedi of that time were rigid traditionalists, and it didn’t help that they had a Grand Master, Yoda, who had held his position for far too long, and despite his best intentions, would’ve been slow to adjust to the necessary changes.

It really is a shame that the EU is no longer canon, as Luke Skywalker’s New Jedi Order fixed a lot of the issues with the Jedi you mentioned. If you’re not familiar, here are some of the changes he made:
– He made Jedi training voluntary. No more ripping children from parents’ arms
– Jedi Robes were encouraged, but not required
– Weapons other than lightsabers (like blasters) were allowed to be carried by Jedi
– Jedi could marry and have children

Granted, Luke’s radical changes did come with more problems than the Old Jedi Order had to deal with. For example, a lot more Jedi Students in Luke’s Jedi Order fell to the Dark Side, but I would argue that the sacrifice for more student freedoms was worth it.

In conclusion, I think the core of the Jedi’s beliefs are good, but the Old Jedi Order was flawed in their practice. I also wouldn’t call them evil…just misguided.
- This reply was modified 3 years, 10 months ago by Verkano.
June 20, 2020 at 5:27 pm #168236
Marka_Ragnos_
That is fair I probably should have mentioned at some point that I’m not too familiar with the EU outside of the story of Darth Krayt (I love him and his backstory so much) as I was mainly judging the Jedi from the perspective of the prequels and Clone Wars. Certain things just always seemed kindof off to me and it does look like Lukes new order does sound a lot better than the old order. I actually do have Jedi Academy downloaded on my Switch but I’ve never gotten around to playing it yet so maybe I should lol. I watched the prequels when I was very young so I didn’t totally understand all the politics yet but as an adult going back to watch Anakin grow up in the environment he’s in and always complaining about people holding him back it does make sense to me as to why he turns out the way that he does. I’m not defending his evil actions like killing children and overthrowing the Republic , just trying to look at it from his point and try to understand why he did what he did
June 20, 2020 at 5:54 pm #168274
Cerabelus
The video Game Knights of the Old Republic 2 for me was when I started questioning the Jedi’s code.

It’s clear to me that Qui-Gon was trying to find a balanced approach and other have tried to do the same.

Jedi and Sith have it wrong in my view, but I don’t have a clear answer but I’d prefer to go out on my own than stay with either of them.
June 20, 2020 at 6:11 pm #168297
DigiCat
Moderator
The Jedi are an organization, there’s gonna be good Jedi and there’s gonna be bad Jedi, just like there’s good and bad in the rest of the galaxy
June 20, 2020 at 7:10 pm #168354
MrDragonbane
The reason Anakin was refused the rank of master is simple. He gained the rank of night in the final 6 months of the war not the beginning of it like TCW08 said.

As for the rigid rules; thats what happens when you have a militaristic order that survived 10000 years as a police force not as a real military. The changes made in the new jedi order of the new republic were made to correct some of the failures. Then some of the changes were made as Luke had to pull from adult candidates not infants.
June 20, 2020 at 7:12 pm #168355
Oldie_Wan_Kenobi
You are spreading Sith propaganda. I have reported you to Yoda!
June 20, 2020 at 7:13 pm #168356
Roas
It really is a shame that the EU is no longer canon, as Luke Skywalker’s New Jedi Order fixed a lot of the issues with the Jedi you mentioned. If you’re not familiar, here are some of the changes he made:
– He made Jedi training voluntary. No more ripping children from parents’ arms
– Jedi Robes were encouraged, but not required
– Weapons other than lightsabers (like blasters) were allowed to be carried by Jedi
– Jedi could marry and have children

Granted, Luke’s radical changes did come with more problems than the Old Jedi Order had to deal with. For example, a lot more Jedi Students in Luke’s Jedi Order fell to the Dark Side, but I would argue that the sacrifice for more student freedoms was worth it.

In conclusion, I think the core of the Jedi’s beliefs are good, but the Old Jedi Order was flawed in their practice. I also wouldn’t call them evil…just misguided.

Excellent analysis using EU lore. Well done.
June 20, 2020 at 7:22 pm #168364
Oldie_Wan_Kenobi
Now for my serious reply:

The Jedi’s actions will dictate this. An evil Jedi is slowly twisted and lost to the dark side. Thus creating a Sith in place of the Jedi.

The over all corruption is very visible for Sith who have fallen to the Dark Side. You can’t deny the evil of some of these Force Users.

I think this is what made Star Wars so very interesting was the point of view aspect of all of this. You had your clear cut black and white Force users. Good/evil

You also had the Grey area that was much more subjective to the relative point of the judgment. You also had clearly evil acts done in the name of a good force.

Great deeds done in the name of an evil force.

I think it opens a lot of discussions that allows everyone to make some good points and open new stories up for sharing with the world.

If only Disney had this kind of passion as I see in the Star Wars community here.

I saw a lot of great points in here. And at the end of the day these stories lead us to learn things about ourselves. Who do we see when we look into the mirror. What does another person see when they see us?

This is what made Star Wars so great and stand the test of time. The characters who battled with these ideas and the worlds that collided with them.

Disney/Lucas has lost sight of this and tried to take the subjective nature of Star Wars and make it THEIR objective truths.

To me that is evil. To them it is justice.
June 20, 2020 at 9:56 pm #168492
Anonymous
The jedi are taking over!
June 20, 2020 at 10:50 pm #168520
AgentCooper
From a certain point of view.
June 20, 2020 at 11:01 pm #168526
Roas
A certain point of view?

EDIT after waking up this morning: Come on!!! Don’t leave me hanging! Someone finish the dialogue!!
- This reply was modified 3 years, 10 months ago by Roas.
June 21, 2020 at 12:19 am #168547
Verkano
I understand what you were getting at. If you look at things from Anakin’s perspective, you can definitely understand why his trust in the Jedi had been shaken, and why the Dark Side was the more attractive substitute.

I’d definitely recommend playing Jedi Academy if you have it on your Switch. It does give you a brief glimpse into Luke’s Jedi Order. It’s also a decent game to boot. If you like it, I recommend checking out its prequel, Jedi Outcast.
June 21, 2020 at 12:24 am #168549
Verkano
Thank you!

I only wish EU lore was more relevant today, and not de-canonized by Disney.
June 21, 2020 at 12:38 am #168555
Verkano
Kreia made me question a lot of things about the Jedi as well.

She’s a really interesting character herself. I don’t recall any other Star Wars character seeking the death of the Force.

Qui-Gon had an innate talent for understanding the Living Force which led to him achieving a level of wisdom beyond that of the Jedi Council…which is why they disagreed often.

I’m not sure if the Jedi and Sith philosophies are necessarily wrong. To me, they are just different ways of looking at the Force. One seeks to work in harmony with it, the other seeks to bend it to their will.

To quote Kreia from KOTOR 2:
“…such titles allow you to break the galaxy into light and dark, categorize it. Perhaps I am neither, and I hold both as what they are, pieces of a whole.”
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