Everyone who mocked the slippery slope should now apologize

How does ”reality prove” what is considered feminine or masculine? Men used to wear pantyhoses and dresses, was this some kind of false reality? Or could it be that society evolved and changed and that is now considered feminine? How exactly is it an objective reality that only females should paint their nails or wear makeup?

You are conflating, quite intentionally I am sure, the realities of sex with fashion and personality.

If you are born with a penis you are a man.  If you are born with the hardware to produce life you are a woman.  Period, full stop.  What you wear, how you choose to adorn yourself or the specifics of what you like or don’t like has NO bearing on your sex.

Now, as intelligent beings, we have the power of observation.  We can clearly see the world over that certain traits typically are associated with men and some with woman.  We tag them masculine or feminine based on observation and not assignment.  This does not mean their cannot be outliers, differences,  and these things that might be outside the norm do not change your sex.

This idea that everything is a social constructs is obnoxiously shortsighted and it is used for manipulation.  Because logically, if everything is a social construct then people are just identical cogs in a machine, a very communist ideal.  And it also gives activists ,such as yourself, license to bang the drum of “let’s change it all as we see fit” because it’s tethered to nothing but societal pressure.  This pours gas on the moral relativism fire that is currently tearing western society apart (which is the goal).

It doesn’t help, because you are biologically a gazelle and that is the only thing the lions see when they meet you.

Exactly, so “misgendering” is total nonsense. Glad we agree.

Yes, and if a person is described to you as someone who used to play with dolls, wears makeup, likes to wear a dress you would assume the person is a female because those are feminine traits, signaling of a female gender. But that person could be a man biologically, which is sex.

Well, we were speaking of children so you gear changed.  Your hypothetical is not real.  No one talks about people that way.  Why?  Because one of the first things mentioned about anyone in any conversation when you are being introduced to the idea of that person is whether they are male or female.  No one describes their traits in that way.    But let’s entertain it.  If someone said that to me, I would assume probably a woman.  Why? Because that  is observable reality. No different than if I was told this person gave birth or could dead lift 500lbs.  If I was introduced to this hypothetical person and I saw he was a man in a dress.  Then I would know it was an outlier situation and that is just what he liked to do.

You can only be a man or woman “biologically” that’s a redundant term user to fool people into accepting the idea there is more than 1 type of man or woman.  There is not.  It matters not what you lop off or glue on.  Under the hood, still the same.

I am inserting here a smarmy joke about religion, but that is another discussion for another time as it is irrelevant to this topic

I can respect that.  But I would be remiss in my duties as someone who understands God exists to not mention having a relationship with God and religion are not only 2 very different things, sometimes they are antithetical to one another.   But to your point, if we were talking about legislating or somehow forcing people to behave as if God exists such they HAD to act a certain way, it’s the same problem and the same encroachment on freedom.  My freedom stops at the doorstep of your freedom regardless of the topic.

well I certainly don’t want anyone to get bullied for expressing traits of the opposite gender, so adding that to title IX sounds good to me.

Bullying was already wrong.  Assault, harassment and other such things already illegal.  Being ugly to someone at work already heavily frowned upon and that being systemic already a legal offense.  So all you are doing is lapping up the tiny bit of pandering milk the Biden admin left out for you so you stay on their planation.

But as far as I know, you don’t get criminalized for not calling someone with cat pronouns or some shit like that. Correct me if I am wrong. And to be clear, I do not want it to become a punishable crime to call someone with wrong pronouns, that would be absurd.

I appreciate you being open to being incorrect and or additional info. That’s the difference between a conversation and an argument. And now I will inform you that you are entirely incorrect.  New York and California have laws and guidance on this and others might as well but those 2 I know for sure.   Outside of the US it’s far worse.  In the UK for example.  If you post a few tweets or whatever social media posts that are not illegal but considered “hateful”, the police show up at your door.  This was a very public thing recently when Scotland enshrined a new “Hate Crime” law and JK Rowling, who is hard left, but considered a “transphobe” was already being reported.  She publicly said to their police, “arrest me”.  They did not.  She pulled a Trump on them essentially and they backed down.  This is also a law federally in Canada.  The infamous Bill C-16.  This was the first one and this is what brought Jordan Peterson out of the shadows talking publicly about how if made law the government can force you to say and do things against your will and it won’t stop there.

And you might ask yourself, how often used could this be?  Enough for Lawyers to advertise it and speak about it and somehow they did so before the magical changes to title IX.

https://www.breslinlawgroup.com/blog/2023/10/2/is-misgendering-a-violation-of-state-or-federal-law

So I al happy we agree such legislation is a negative thing.  But I am shocked that you cannot root out the cause and effect.  This did not just start, it’s been going on and anyone should have been able to see where it was headed.  The logical conclusion of this, if it keeps going, is the government now has the power to write law to compel speech and action.   If you don’t see how these things are linked and where they go then I am not at all surprised you hear “slippery slope” and think “RIGHT WING PROPAGANDA!”.

there are many ways to be respectful. You can use pronouns when said person is in proximity, for example if you refer that person to a third person with you.

You know as well as I do how that is presented but its not how it’s used as I described so again, it’s social engineering nonsense and nothing more.  I WILL NOT cede reality to anyone and I don’t care if you find it disrespectful or not.  Not having a grasp on reality is a you problem, not a me problem.  Expecting someone else to accept who you want to be when you cannot accept who you are is illogical and harmful to that person.  Indulging people in fantasies is not respect and it is not compassion.  It’s quite the opposite.

That’s very fat pride accepting of you. I would encourage people to be what they feel most comfortable being. If a person is fat but wants to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger, I would say go to the gym and don’t stay miserable if you feel bad being as you are.

Fat pride is as illogical and harmful as is the gender nonsense.  You cannot be anything than what you are.  I see you buy fully into this thought process that if I think I am something, I am that something.  Yet somehow an intelligent creator seems silly to you?  And NO ONE is up in arms or talking about what people wish to consider themselves.  People have their hair bristled up because they are being forced to say and do things to go along with someone else’s perception of themselves.  But how very activist of you to conflate those 2 things.

I would rephrase it as ”I want the world to accept me the way I feel most comfortable in”.

See this is what makes me upset at this ideology.  You (collective you) say things that sound compassionate and it makes people feel moral when they say it.  The reality is if they were ACTUALLY compassionate they would scratch beyond the self aggrandizing platitudes and understand that indulging in fantasies not only hurts people but in this case it greatly harms society.   You have young girls en masse latching onto this and doing things they regret to themselves in droves.  This is not compassion.  This is selfishness and in total indifference to the welfare of others.

by who? Pedophiles? And how much progress has it made? If pedophilia ever becomes more normalized and is actually getting momentum then I will stand next to you fighting against it with all my might, but I don’t see it happening.

I would sincerely hope we could fight together on many other things as well but I appreciate your point.  And if you don’t see pedophilia being pushed (in the long and short term) then you are either not at all paying attention or you are lying.  And yes, it is the pedophiles pushing it.  Particularly the pedophiles who have hijacked parts of the “gay movement” and that to a large degree is how that’s all getting conflated which is not a coincidence. Pedophiles are trying to shield themselves under the gay umbrella. They are referring to pedophilia as another sexuality and trying to wash it clean with terms like “MAP” and “virtuous pedophile”.  The unsettling part is, arguments used for normalizing homosexuality also work for pedophilia until you hit age of consent.

I am not sure how you don’t see this.  There have been articles, new stories and so on.  One in particular by Todd Nickerson on Salon that got so much backlash they removed it.  But of course, the internet is forever.  http://archive[DOT]is/ttVNy

This is being pushed from the edges consistently and eventually the edges will be the middle.  It’s a hard push to sexualize children.  Why do you think people are so against the drag queen thing around kids?  There are countless videos of that stuff show young kids sexual things.  The infamous story/pcis of the kids at a drag show with a large neon/LED sign on the stage saying “It’s not gonna lick itself”.  So if you do not see all this, then you need to diversity your news sources.

They might use it as a shield but the moment they get caught they are going to be in jail. I could use a similar line of thought about molesting priests, but I think it is crucial to keep them separated and not mix just because they are trying to utilize the surrounding.

You keep whipping out religion as if like a vampire under the shadow of a Crucifix I will recoil.  I won’t.  You are barking up the wrong tree.

They use it as a shield.  It works.  And not they don’t arrested so long as they are using the shield.  How many “drag queens” have been arrested for doing/showing sexual things to kids?  If it is a reasonable thought to believe that someone would join the Priesthood to gain access to children, is it not also a reasonable thought someone would become a drag queen for the same reason at this stage of things?  And yes, the Priest is no different than the “drag queen”.  In fact, I consider the priest even more morally reprehensible because he not offends God while pretending to teach people about him and just leads people astray. Leading children astray is one of the few times in the New Testament where it gets real dark, real fast.

“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” –Matthew 18:6, the speaker is Jesus himself

consent is key, which is what separates pedophilia from sexual orientations. 

Again, the arguments for sexual orientations fits for pedophilia.  As I see it the ONLY logical (not moral) separation is consent. But again man, draw it out to the logical conclusions.  If a child can be sexually aware enough to “select” his or her sex, then consent to sex is the next stop on that train.  And you might want to look at the thousands of children coming across the border and check into how they disappear and ponder the circumstances and where they end up.

Regarding gender affirming care for minors, in most places it is treated like cosmetic surgeries, meaning it is not for minors. 

“gender affirming care” is a propaganda phrase and I reject it.  This is only a construct if you play the mental game of “I believe therefore it is”.  If you remove that illogical fallacy that ceases to exist.  There is no reason to affirm what you are.  Adults can do as they please so long as I am not paying for it. Children?  Hell no that is monstrous.

Regarding minors with serious gender dysphoria, I am having a really high treshold for that because minors really should be protected from making wrong choices as they can not consent.

You are lapping up the propaganda as if you are a stray cat who has a saucer of fresh milk placed in front of them.  Stop assuming what you see is correct or true.  Stop exchanging your authority for the authority of others because they request you do so.

Gender Dysphoria is VERY rare.  So it would stand that in minors even more rare or almost nonexistent if we think pre-puberty.  And while you do have some internally confused kids out there, they generally work it out (80%+ I think I have seen) on their own discovering that they are simply gay.  This phenomenon of gay=trans in kids is referred to (by gay groups) as “transing away the gay”.

The exception that some are fighting for is if someone has serious gender dysphoria, a surgery is treated like any medical (not cosmetic) surgery.

Children SHOULD NOT have surgeries on their private parts in this context.  FULL STOP.  PERIOD.  Again, this is more propaganda.  If we open the door to “well it’s OK in serious cases”, then “serious” get redefined.  And this has already happened and you have some hospitals already doing this in the US.  And yes, for minors.  And yes in large numbers.

My opinion of this is still unclear, honestly. I believe cosmetic surgeries should be restricted for minors, therefore a minor should not be able to ”select their sex”.

My opinion is clear as day as I am sure you see.  Is that because I heard someone say something or because someone told me to be against it?  No, it’s because I take in information from all corners and I stew on it myself and work through the assertions and the claims in my own head.

And we agree, NO cosmetic surgery minors and that minors cannot “select their sex”.  We agree 1000% percent.

But if I can see data on minors with gender dysphoria overcoming and living a happy life rather than depression or even suicide from gender dysphoria then I absolutely choose a happy minor over a dead minor, as in any health emergency operation for a minor. But there needs to be absolutely strong evidence for that, until then I will stay with my belief that minors should not have access to gender affirming care.

You won’t find that data because it does not exist.  And even considering the paradigm of  “if we don’t cut his man business off he will kill himself” is nonsense.  This is more propaganda.  It’s a thought trap scaring parents into these surgeries threatening them with the death of their child.  It is emotional blackmail. And now you have places like California where a child WILL BE and HAS taken away from their parents by the state because the child requests transition in one form or another and the parents refuse.  Do you not see the autonomy being assigned to children?  Do you not think consent is not next to go?

I do not fall into these moral quagmires. I consider and or reject assertions I can personally observe that conflict with reality. (I saw this with the COVID vaccine nonsense, not immediately I was scared like everyone else at first and I actually saw COVID coming before most as I was keeping tabs on it in China)  I do not accept without test and thought words and or info from “experts”.  Authority is like offense.  No one can force it upon you, you have to accept it.

As to all this gender stuff in general.  I implore you to read about 2 things.  John Money, where the modern trans nonsense is rooted that ended up with 2 dead people.  You will CLEARLY see that your assertions of “society defines gender traits” is very wrong.

You should also read about the lobotomy.  At the time heralded as a way to help mentally ill people and it was OK to destroy part of their brain because “science”.   As I understand it, that is the previous time we treated mental illness with surgery. I do know of some experimental surgery for SERIOUS depression which involved an implant but you catch my drift I am sure.

I also refer you to this book written by an experienced professional in that specific field.

https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Trans-Nation-Psychiatrists-Madness/dp/B0CDJCSX2W/ref=sr_1_5?sr=8-5

• This reply was modified 2 weeks, 6 days ago by Vknid.

I agree, if we talk about sex we are talking biology. Genitals and chromosomes etc. You can look up gender in dictionaries, where it says something like ”Sex is the biological category, whereas gender is the culturally shaped expression of sexual difference: the masculine way in which men should behave and the feminine way in which women should behave”.

Great!  We agree that sex is easily definable and unchangeable.

“Gender” was used to mean sex at it’s origin.  Further used to describe the male or female of words.  I believe it was not until the 60’s it began to be used differently and then got twisted over time to loosely use it the way you are describing.  I reject propaganda words.  The way you use it, it’s a propaganda word used to inject an assumption.

And you are describing EXACTLY what I am talking about here.  Understand what you just said.  “gender is the culturally shaped expression of sexual difference”.  So going with what you said, the root of gender is sex.  And as we agreed, sex is easily definable and unchangeable.  Since you agree sex and gender are linked, then it reasons to stand they are both not “fluid”.

so do you reject the notion that people should not be discriminated or bullied due to religion for example at school?

I reject the notion bullying (which is not a crime nor should it be) and discrimination (somewhat nebulous term but) does not need additional identifiers.  If it is considered bad or illegal, than it should not matter why, just that it happened.  Whether the discrimination happened because you like cheese or are black, makes no difference and there is no severity difference between the situations because all that mattered is it happened.   This is like “lynching laws”.  It’s already illegal.  “hate crime”.  If it’s a crime, already illegal.

Writing laws for things already illegal is a game show for politicians.

So there is nothing about using wrong pronouns, as pronouns are not even mentioned once in the entire bill. It specifically is that if there is proof of discrimination at the work force due to a person’s gender, they can be held responsible. I don’t know about you but I find discrimination pretty cringe.

You are right.  “pronoun” is not in the bill.  But you know what is? “gender expression”  You know what is a form of gender expression?  Pronouns.  And if you look at some of the cases already brought forward, the claims involve against the defendant include using the wrong pronouns.

As far as I know, the Bill C-16 does not mean a person gets legally punished for using wrong pronouns 

Well then you need to research more.

 would like to correct you in this regard, people with gender dysphoria or who want to transition do not believe they are the opposite sex,

You might want to diversify your news sources.  In the current iteration of “trans” you are comically incorrect.  10+ years ago that statement might have been correct.  It’s not even close now.   Sure, not everyone thinks that and you could point out the difference between actual dysphoria and feeling different that day but these things are not seen as the same.  If this was not the case there would not be men winning women’s sports.

Regarding people with gender dysphoria, your solution of ”just encourage them to accept who they are biologically

I proposed no solutions. I mentioned that actual respect is not going along with the delusion but speaking to reality.

I would much rather see a trans person than a dead person

If they don’t get treatment, it can lead to cases where they can not function in society because of it, and even depression and suicide.

You believe in lies, or you are a liar.  Pick one.

That’s the bullcrap thing they tell parents.  Suicide is a legit concern due to the mental disorder.  So regardless of what you lop off it’s a symptom.

And if you come up with a way to effectively and routinely cure people’s gender dysphoria 

That’s an unrealistic expectation.  No mental disorders that I am aware of have any “cures”.  You can make it better. You can learn to cope.  You don’t erase it.

But right now, the only way is transitioning and I personally don’t mind trans people,

You are conflating again.  We were talking about children.  Not adults.  Adults can do what they want although I believe ,like it used to be, you had to go through a great deal of mental examination and therapy before a doctor would agree to such a surgery.  And you assertion that changing your parts solves anything is also incorrect.  You do realize the surgeries are barbaric right?  You realize that not only do you NOT get a functional (or recognizable) organ, they remove your actual functioning organs.  Again, that is not compassion.

Can you elaborate?

You would only need to “affirm” something you question.  The question itself is illogical.  If the idea is that your genitalia makes you your sex (gender,/sex same thing) , then you are your sex period.    There is nothing to “affirm”.  Thus, propaganda phrase baking in the assumption that the question is valid.  It is not.

I don’t see it being successfully pushed and normalized. 

Stop playing word games and moving the goal posts.  I said it was being pushed and attempts were being made to normalize it.  I did not give additional modifiers like “successful”.   The link does not work because I boke it on purpose I did not want it to display.  Exchange “[DOT]” for “.”

I utilize it in a similar way you utilize transgenderism.

No, no you don’t and I am actually insulted at this point you would use such a lazy tactic.

I don’t know, how many? And how many priests have? 

Why do you incessantly compare drag queens to priests?  Do you think I am going to defend one type of pedophile and not another?  No.  As I mentioned before the Priest to me is a far worse offender.

People have been doing drag for hundreds of years, and drag is not inherently sexual, just like religion or being a priest isn’t. Drag is just the concept of people dressing in a comically stereotyping way as the opposite gender to make jokes about said gender

Not really,  no they have not.  More propaganda.  People have dressed as the opposite sex for a long time and for many different reasons.  Simply putting on a dress is not drag.  Drag is inherently sexual because it is about sex.  It is a man dressed and acting as a cartoon like caricature of a woman.  The very premise of drag is sexual.  Does that mean it has to be people having sex on stage?  No, but that is not the only definition of sexual.

The fact you compared drag to Priests and religion makes me want to vomit.  That’s an absolutely disgusting comparison.

No drag is not just mocking the opposite gender.  Progressive definitions morph to suit the agenda.  You can buy into that, I will not.

And again, we are talking kids here.  No one cares or cared about drag queens with adults.  In fact drag queens for decades have been lauded as something fun and interesting especially by straight women.  No one cared.  Until they came for the kids.  Now we care.  Watch the movie “The Birdcage” with Robin Williams.  Drag Queens were shown as something fun and even cool.  But you know what you did not see?  Kids there.  Now we have “drag kids” and some dancing on stage for adults doing simulated stripping and Drag Queens all around kids and often doing overt sexual things.

how large numbers I wonder?

Does that matter?  How kids is it OK to mutilate in your mind?

But I am curious, why aren’t people this loud fighting against circumcision  or tonsil removal for minors?

Uhhh because neither destroys useful healthy organs?  Neither sterilizes you? Neither is occurring outside of the choice of a parent? Neither is enforced by the state?  Neither is part of an ideology being pushed from the top down?  And for your information lots of folks talk about circumcision but it’s not a criical topic because no once forces you to do it or cancels you for it.  There are not laws being written about circumcision.

Children with gender dysphoria is extremely rare.

Actual dysphoria yes.  But no one uses that phrase anymore and it’s all referred to as trans and trans is now a feeling.   And if we say you meant trans, then there are MANY of them.

Lobotomy destroys the brain without fixing anything, surgery doesn’t cause harm and has an extremely high success rate of combating gender dysphoria. 

It does not destroy the brain, it harmed it.  People still lived they were just very damaged people.  And at the time, like we say with trans now, it was considered scientifically correct.  Yes sexual surgery VERY MUCH DOES CAUSE HARM.  You are removing healthy organs, this is the epitome of harm.   It does not have a high a success rate and I am not sure anyone could prove something that subjective.  And in our current context of kids, its very unsuccessful.

And like I said, if there is ever a medicine that gets rid of gender dysphoria without having any kind of transition, I am all for that.

Again, a point we agree on.  But you realize you even saying that by many measures makes you “transphobic”?  It’s no longer seen socially as a sickness.  Why would it?  It’s simply a feeling now.  You can get hormones and other such things on 1 doctor visit now.

Go watch the interview Blair White did with a man who sadly calls himself “the thing”.  Why?  He wanted to be a woman.  He was told he could be with surgery and hormones.  Go listen to him talk for 2 hours about how that has destroyed him.  Go watch it and come back and tell me if you consider that compassion or a successful solution.   Listen to a man cry while he tells you “I miss my penis”. Then when done, think about that in terms of a 15yr old.

• This reply was modified 2 weeks, 5 days ago by Vknid.