John MacArthur: The Wrath of God
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Vknid.
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July 17, 2023 at 9:36 am #303195
I suppose this isn’t a popular topic, even in the modern church, but it’s still important.
The idea of God’s wrath, of God being angry, is usually dealt with in two ways: either covered over by a “God loves you” message which tries to ignore God’s anger, or by attempts to portray God’s wrath as cruel and unjust. Neither attempt is true.
Rather, consider humanity, and how much of a wreck we have made of the world. When God created a good world for us, and we in sin and rebellion have made it something like hell, are we also to say that God is unjust in his wrath toward those who have ruined his good work? When God created man as, for example, sexual creatures, are we to deny that God’s anger is just when we see how man has made sex so perverse?
It is in understanding God’s justice and holiness and how they are shown in his anger and wrath that we can more fully appreciate God’s love and grace and mercy. It helps us understand what it really means when the Bible says that “Jesus came into the world to save sinners” and “Christ died for the ungodly” and “God showed us His love in this: that while we were still sinners Christ died for us”.
In God, there is great mercy, but there is also great justice. In God, there is great love, but there is also great wrath.
July 18, 2023 at 12:12 pm #303253Great great topic. This is one of those things, like you mention, that gets glossed over but there is meaning to it that is fundamental to understanding our relationship with God.
Does God love us without limitation? Yes! Does God make judgement and dispense ultimate justice? Yes! Those things are not mutually exclusive, in fact they cannot be separated.
This is a very misunderstood thing in current culture. Actual love is not blindly accepting anything and everything someone says, does or desires. Very often things people want to do or have done are wrong and unhealthy either physically or spiritually. Allowing people you supposedly love to do whatever they think makes them happy is NOT love. It’s just placation and it takes almost no effort. Real love is hard and takes work and is rarely easy but its rewards are concrete and long lasting.
This is not just theory. The relationship between parent and child is modeled after our relationship with God. Up until the last 5 mins of history it was a parents job to assist the growth of their child primarily through setting boundaries, guidance and judgement/punishment. All of these things were delivered in the proper measure from love even though it would be far easier to allow your child to do what they please. Our relationship with God is no different.
I know some folks question how God can love us so and all of us. They also struggle to understand how his patients is equal to his love. But again, just like the example of the parent/child relationship, would you not give your own child every chance and then some?
We must realize what God has already demonstrated. Even though we are his creations and he is all powerful, he took some portion of himself in Jesus and sent him down as one of us knowing we would torture and kill him. God essentially allowed his own creations to torture him so he could afford us free will and also save us. I know of many people whom won’t sacrifice for their own children much less allow themselves to be tortured by them.
“For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” John 3:17
July 18, 2023 at 10:22 pm #303299One of today’s biggest errors is something you point out, that somehow “love” has come to mean accepting whatever someone does or says they are, “love” means agreement without question and without doubt, “love” means never having or wanting to say “You’re dead wrong”.
I think you are right in saying that some ways the parent-child relationship is a model or shadow of how God is with us, though there are also some important differences, too. Those who belong to God are called “children of God”. And there is a passage in the New Testament that tells us that “Those whom God loves, He chastens”, meaning that God’s love is not some kind of soft-soap acceptance, but is a love that corrects us, even severely.
But there is also a dividing line. Jesus said of some people that their father was not God, but the Devil, and later in the New Testament there are those who are called “children of wrath, prepared for destruction”.
That is why the gospel is so important. Christ was crucified for our sins, and those who repent of their sins and believe in Christ are forgiven of their sins, and in that way they also become children of God. That is the starting point.
July 18, 2023 at 11:40 pm #303304I like this Scripture from the Old Testament:
“As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live…” (Ezekiel 33:11)
July 19, 2023 at 12:17 am #303306Excellent points!
I would like to add this to attempt to enhance the conversation.
I don’t believe there is just 1 way to interpret the Bible. I think it is multilayered and intentionally so.
To build on that I don’t think there is just 1 way to love or worship God.
God is not in heaven with a huge checklist waiting to give you X’s or checkmarks as you proceed through life.
To think of a entity without limitation and them immediately place limits upon him by thinking he is simple in my mind are opposing beliefs.
“For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” ” –Romans 9:15
July 20, 2023 at 8:00 am #303364I admit, I don’t much like the idea that the Bible can be interpreted in multiple ways, maybe because that’s a ploy I’ve seen used by some questionable people; for example, those who want to claim some special insight they have received but that was hidden from the “common rabble”, something like what the gnostics claimed, or those on the left who want to try to deconstruct and reinterpret it through the lenses of things like post-colonialism, post-patriarchy, post-modernism, post-post-modernism. Yes, there are biblical passages that are difficult to understand, but many times the difficulty isn’t so much with understanding but with accepting. Even many on the left have admitted that, for example, the Bible is against homosexuality, that it never even hints at any approval of anything gay, but they still try to twist and spin the texts to somehow pull out a “Gay is ok” message from the Bible. Their problem isn’t that they don’t understand the Bible, but that they don’t like what the Bible says, so they try to create another message, one they like, from the text. But they are far from alone in doing that; even in the conservative side of the church, such mishandling of scripture is far too common, as can be seen by the popularity of the prosperity gospel.
July 20, 2023 at 9:32 am #303369“I admit, I don’t much like the idea that the Bible can be interpreted in multiple ways”
Well it’s something that has to be understood because it is absolutely the reality of the situation. And this is not a bad thing at all. I have read passages at one time in my life and reread them when I was in a different life position and they had different or more meaning at that point.
People should not solely rely on others to gain the knowledge or wisdom from the Bible. I do believe it was intended that everyone perceive it for themselves. That’s not to say all interpretations are equal or even valid. Just because I think one way does not mean I am right but that’s my take on it and it is only significant to me and no one else should be forced to accept it. And just because someone reads things in the Bible and decides it means what they want it to does not mean that is correct either. The Bible should be read with an open mind and heart and not confirmation bias.
“Even many on the left have admitted that, for example, the Bible is against homosexuality, that it never even hints at any approval of anything gay, but they still try to twist and spin the texts to somehow pull out a “Gay is ok” message from the Bible”
I want to take the opportunity of that statement to explain that so people understand it. For as long as I can recall there has been an assumption that ,and even the promotion of the idea, that God, the Bible and and the Church (Catholic) are diametrically opposed to being gay. I think that was an intentional and strategic move by the radical left long ago to separate people from God.
At this point many whom are gay just assume (because it’s what they are told by the media) that Christianity is against them and hates them. This is a bold-faced lie made with the intent to drive a wedge between people and God.
God loves all his children. He makes them exactly how he intends to. Plainly put, having same sex attraction is not sinful. Acting upon those impulses is. The Bible makes it clear the behavior is wrong but simply existing as a gay person is not wrong or sinful. It is your behavior and choices that can be wrong not how you were made.
Some think, well forget all that God stuff because clearly that’s unfair and “love is love” and all such incorrect statements. It’s really not unfair. Everyone on this planet has crosses to bear. We all have “demons” we fight every day. And at the end of the day all of us are called to refrain from our sexual impulses except in one situation which is a man and a woman being married and even then the idea is to bless that family with children.
But you are right. I think many people choose not to even entertain that there is a God because it acknowledges the reality of judgement and accountability. But the deal with reality is whether you acknowledge it or not, it will acknowledge you ultimately.
July 20, 2023 at 11:40 pm #303406Then, how do we avoid swinging into some kind of “The Bible can mean whatever I want it to mean” mindset? If the Bible is always open to interpretation, and we can’t say for sure what any particular passage really means, then are we not left with little more than our own opinions about what it may or may not mean?
July 21, 2023 at 6:04 am #303416““The Bible can mean whatever I want it to mean””
This is part of my point. That is already the case and has been.
The Bible is a book of knowledge and understanding, the manual for life. It is not a book of authoritarian controls to only be interpreted by a controlling few. Unfortunately, in the past that was the case when people were not typically literate and this goes on today with the Quran/Hadith in some places.
Everyone’s relationship with God is a direct personal thing because you are the one whom will be judged for your actions. The only person between you and God is Jesus. Priests and the organization of Church are assists but at the end of the day it’s you Jesus and God. And as such so is your understanding of the Bible. Now clearly there are theologists and Bible experts that can add a world of understanding and context and those are things we should seek out but it’s still YOUR understanding that matters to you.
Ultimately, if you are seeking scripture from a place of wanting knowledge and understanding you will find it. If you are just reading it to confirm or prove what you already think is the case you are coming from a disingenuous position and only harming yourself. Obviously people learning together and discussing their different point of view is an awesome thing. But no one has the authority to force their Bible interpretation on anyone else.
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