Michigan passes misgendering law. Use wrong pronouns, pay a $10,000 fine

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  • #303122

    Believe it or not…passed in the good ol’ U.S. of A.

    #303124
    Vknid
    Moderator

      Once the goverment is allowed to pass laws to compel speech or action, their is no undoing that.  And if you think it stops there count yourself foolish.

      #303125

      And what will happen to people who can’t afford that? What about vulnerable people with learning difficulties who are going to be more confused and upset about this if they’re not informed about this at all. Especially if their parents or carers don’t mention stuff like this to them because of it indoctorating them.

      #303126
      Vknid
      Moderator

        @DragonLady

        This is simply my prognostication, but I have a feeling the reality is this will probably rarely be enforced unless it’s really pushed.  I honestly think the idea is to break the seal on laws that compel speech and action.  So this is not a goal, it’s just a stepping stone.

        Now with that said, if we look at other examples around the world I could be wrong.  In the UK with their crime on the rise (just like in most Western countries) it’s not at all odd to get a visit by the police for a mean tweet, post or email.

        Although I think both things are used for the exact same reason.  You make the population so afraid to say the wrong thing, they say nothing.

        #303139

        @Vknid

        Personally I think these people should be in a mental hospital. They need serious help, not praise.

        #303142
        DigiCat
        Moderator

          Motherfucking lunatics

          #303176

          Misinformation spread rapidly on social media last week claiming that legislation expanding Michigan’s hate crime law to include protections for gay and transgender individuals would make it a felony for using a person’s wrong pronoun.

          However, House Bill 4474 doesn’t even contain the word “pronouns,” much less set out any sort of legal framework to criminalize misidentifying of gender or disagreeing with an individual’s preference to be referred to as he, she or they.

          Some conservative critics have taken a couple of words in the bill’s text that says any action that “threatens by word or act” and interpreted it to mean that addressing someone as a “he” when the individual identifies as “she” would be a threat punishable by up to five years in prison and a $10,000 fine.

           

          Michigan’s hate crime law dating to 1988 already makes it illegal to intimidate someone based on an actual or perceived characteristic, such as race or color, religion, sex or national origin. The bill would add protections for sexual orientation, gender identity, age and physical or mental disability.

          Under the legislation, intimidation is defined as a “willful course of conduct involving repeated or continuing harassment of another individual that would cause a reasonable individual to feel terrorized, frightened, or threatened, and that actually causes the victim to feel terrorized, frightened, or threatened.”

          Maybe read up a bit before jumping into biased conclusions. ”Oh no, harrassing trans people is gonna be a no-no? Damn I guess I need to find a new hobby”.

          Examples are provided, take a close look:

          “If somebody says, ‘I do not believe you are a man, I believe you are a woman’ and misgenders someone, even intentionally, that is not a crime,” Savit said. “That is First Amendment protected speech. … I don’t believe it’s a kind thing to say. But it’s not a crime.”

          It only becomes a hate crime when a “reasonable” person feels repeatedly frightened and threatened by an individual’s words or acts.

          “People can say whatever they want, that ‘I feel frightened because somebody misgendered me,'” Savit said. “But that’s not going to cut it for purposes of this bill.”

          “The notion that somebody can just be misgendered one time, misgendered accidently, or even intentionally, and that’s going to lead to criminal charges is simply wrong,” Savit said. “It’s not supported by the text of the bill.”

          The criminality line for a hate crime, Savit said, would be crossed if someone tells a transgender woman “I don’t believe you’re a woman, I know where you live and my gun is lock and loaded.”

          “That absolutely could be a hate crime,” Savit said. “That’s legitimate intimidation. But just simply saying I’m not calling you by the pronoun that you identify as, that in no way can be criminalized consistent with the First Amendment.”

           

          So basically it already protects people getting harrassed by religion, race and so on. Now they simply add trans people to cut down on psychos harrassing them. Where exactly is the problem?

          https://eu.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/michigan/2023/07/04/michigan-legislature-not-criminalize-pronoun-use-lgbtq-transgender-misgendering-fox-news-daily-mail/70379518007/

          #303177

          Not surprised tho that the basement pissing Quarterpounder would misrepresent it and run with a fake and biased narrative

          #303207
          Vknid
          Moderator

            “So basically it already protects people getting harrassed by religion, race and so on. Now they simply add trans people to cut down on psychos harrassing them. Where exactly is the problem?”

            Actually, you might want to read the bill.  It does not technically say trans anything.  But it more or less describes the condition.  However, the real take away here is not that it mentions “gender expression” but all the other things it adds and latches on.  In short, it makes things that are already illegal, illegal.  Like many “hate crime” bills it is very redundant and wholly unnecessary.  The threat here is it basically gives the goverment digression to charge someone with a hate crime for dirty looks if they wish which is intentional because it will be used selectively.

            Now if you want to champion that because it has the words “gender expression” in it, then I have a contract for you to sign.  Don’t read any of it, but I can promise you it contains the phrase “gender expression” so you should be ok with blindly signing it.

            The very interesting thing here is that after reading the bill I found something that I have not heard anyone mention.  Now maybe I am reading this incorrectly but this seems like legalese for if you want to avoid jail time you can “volunteer” for reeducation.  I will make a separate post on that.

            “Not surprised tho that the basement pissing Quarterpounder would misrepresent it and run with a fake and biased narrative

            It’s like you cannot stop yourself from being hateful.

             

             

            #303233

            It does not technically say trans anything.

            Not directly but it’s about gender expression so trans people are included.

            Association or affiliation with an individual or group of individuals in whole or in part
            based on a characteristic described above.
            For both HB 4474 and HB 4476, gender identity or expression would mean having or
            being perceived as having a gender-related self-identity or expression, whether or not
            associated with an individual’s assigned sex at birth.

             

            However, the real take away here is not that it mentions “gender expression” but all the other things it adds and latches on.  In short, it makes things that are already illegal, illegal.

            Possibly. But it’s a wild statement and simply untrue to panic about having to pay $10 000 for ”misgendering someone”.

            If any of the following apply, a person who commits a hate crime would be guilty of a felony
            punishable by imprisonment for up to five years or a fine of up to $10,000, or both:
            • The hate crime results in bodily injury.
            • The person has one or more prior convictions 1 for hate crimes.

            You only need to worry about that part if you have repeatedly threatened to hurt someone because of their gender expression, or actually threatened and caused physical injuries. So any normal people have nothing to worry about, but violent transphobes for example might be in trouble. If you feel like that description doesn’t fit you and you don’t go out harrassing others then you’re good.

            It’s like you cannot stop yourself from being hateful.

            I’m gonna be hateful towards other hateful people. There are already hundreds of anti-trans bills making their lives harder, and The Quarterpounder intentionally misrepresents this new bill by saying crap like making jokes about transgenders or misgendering someone as a joke or accidentally can lead to you going to jail or paying a 10k fine.
            It’s like saying that under current circumstances saying christians are cringe or calling a catholic lutheran can lead to 10k fine. It simply is not true.
            And he has a massive audience that he misleads with his videos. And instead of looking up what the bill actually contributes, the decide to believe a lying creep who pisses in his basement and got banned from all magic the gathering events for harrassing another person.

             

            #303242
            DigiCat
            Moderator

              Maybe read up a bit before jumping into biased conclusions. ”Oh no, harrassing trans people is gonna be a no-no? Damn I guess I need to find a new hobby”

              I guess we fell for the same panic libs did with the “don’t say gay bill” 😅 And no, no one was thinking “oh no i can’t harrass trans people anymore”

              That said…

              I’m sure like bills that protect women from domestic abuse get at times taken advantage of by not so nice women who just want revenge on their partner for some reason, chances are this bill will be taken advantage of by some not so nice trans and non-binary people

              I’m not saying this out of the blue, there’s a track record that makes this beliveble, like what is the % of women who win such cases like i mentioned vs the % of men who’ll win them? And why does Ezra Miller get a shit-ton of protection for terrible accusations but Johnny Depp gets burnt at the stake without even a chance to defend himself?

              There is unfortunately a bias when it comes to these cases, particularly towards straight white men

              The same way 50-100 years ago (heck maybe even less) if you had a court case of a white man vs a black man, who had a higher chance of winning? Not to hard to figure out since back then the bias was towards black people

              These biases unfortunately don’t only hurt innocent people who might get charged for something they didn’t do, but they also hurt people who’ve really been victims of such crimes, because the more people take advantage of these biases to bulshit, the less credibility real victims have

              #303244
              Vknid
              Moderator

                “Possibly. But it’s a wild statement and simply untrue to panic about having to pay $10 000 for ”misgendering someone”.

                There are frankly issues with bills like this and especially this one specifically.

                1) “hate crime” bills are technically useless and redundant and instituted so a legislative body can publicly feign to be doing something deemed popular without really doing anything

                2) “hate crime” bills like this use terms that are intentionally open to interpretation making its very feasible they can be used selectively and as a weapon down the line

                3)  it is 100% possible it can be used for a case of misgendering.  It seems to be written to infer that it requires some level of abuse but much of that is dependent on the feelings of the person therefore leaving it open to interpretation

                4) if ALL it did was add the words “transgender” to existing legislation it actually would not be a big deal but that is not even close to the case

                5) the “reeducation clause” should scare the crap out of everyone

                6) people championing this bill (and others like it) make a MASSIVE philosophical error assuming it will only be used in the way they intend and could never be used against them

                7) giving the goverment power to compel speech and action is something you won’t be able to undo and if you think that will only be used against people you disagree with you are a fool

                .

                “I’m gonna be hateful towards other hateful people.”

                You ARE the monster you pretend to rail against.

                “There are already hundreds of anti-trans bills making their lives harder”

                That is 1000% untrue and a bold-faced lie.

                • This reply was modified 11 months ago by Vknid.
                • This reply was modified 11 months ago by Vknid.
                #303252

                Worth repeating here:

                Once they leave terms and clauses wholly or partially ambiguous then anyone in authority sympathetic to the cause like those DEMon appointed Judges who can’t define what is a woman will use such ambiguity to further their cause.

                Anyone who thinks otherwise is either genuinely stupid or one of the left’s indoctrinated minions.

                Full Stop.

                #303255

                image003

                #303317
                DarthVengeant
                Premium

                  And this is what I would do

                  I’d just keep saying it. If calling someone an asshole or motherfucker is ok, but not their “improper pronouns”, then we live in a upside down world I want no part of and will NOT follow “rules” like this.

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