Modern civilization IS ignorant

  • This topic has 9 replies, 4 voices, and was last updated 1 year ago by Vknid.
Viewing 10 posts - 1 through 10 (of 10 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #297977
    Vknid
    Moderator

      I was thinking about this and have made another post or 2 close to the topic.  But it has occurred to me that humans of the past were very open to new ideas, thoughts and paradigms.  Sure, through the years many a hypothesis has been proven wrong with us now considering them outlandish and asking ourselves how could anyone believe that.  We assure ourselves we are collectively far smarter now.

      But there in lies the issue.  We are so (over) confident in what we think we know we have forgotten how often wrong we are and as such to be open to entirely new ideas and possibilities.  Anyone today that conjures a thought or an idea radically off the mainstream is more often called crazy than anything else.  It’s like we are a teenager, we don’t assume we know everything we are absolutely certain of it.

      I think this lack of elasticity in our thought processes closes people off to new ideas and essentially makes us stupid.  Incidentally, I think this is also what makes society so easy to control. People get fed a narrative that they are so sure of they refuse to question it and act upon it. COVID is a prime example and clearly science was very wrong about many things in that situation.

      #297980

      Part of that is that in schools, they no longer teach students how to think (critical thinking) but what to think.

      Accept what we indoctrinate you as “our truth” (ignore the FACTS and what you see with your own eyes).

      Take your NPC programming and reject science, empirical data, common sense, etc.

      They can’t accept anything that goes against their “programming”.

      You can’t debate as facts are ignored when your irrational feelings refuses to accept them.

      An ignorant population is more easily controlled than an actual Educated one.

      That is why every newly formed authoritarian, dictatorship, communists/marxists, etc regimes terminates the educated and the useful idiots firsts.

      When the communists Soviet Union fell, they had to throw out ALL the history tests/textbooks because of this falsehood being taught.

      Yet today they want to rewrite history to support their ideology, even if it is factually wrong.  Instead of learning from history, they want to biased judgment on the past based on todays dogma.  Actively making people racists by forcing racism on our youth.

      We are literally seeing a lost generation getting screwed by this attack on reality.

      And when people start to speak up, they are shouted down as -ists and -phobes and name calling, shaming, etc.

      This is gonna be the legacy of the liberal world, the “modern civilization”, where it was so corrupted from within, if we cannot reverse this trend we are doomed… Ancient Rome waiting for the barbarians to come in and finish the job the degenerates started.

      #297981

      “We are so (over) confident in what we think we know we have forgotten how often wrong we are and as such to be open to entirely new ideas and possibilities. ”

      That’s infidel talk :D

      But yes, unquestioning belief in whatever world view one has been marinated in, has always been mark of stupidity. Unfortunately, the stupid have always been the majority, too.

      #297987
      Vknid
      Moderator

        I think it’s a deep philosophical error.  And yes intentionally used to control the masses.  The moment a person believes that there can be nothing beyond what they can conceive of is the moment people stop learning, regress mentally and probably go crazy because it means there is literally nothing beyond your experience. And that cannot be further from the truth.  I think this has much to do with the rapid disbelief in God or anything spiritual or not of this world.

        Most of mankind’s greatest achievements were once thought impossible.  If we all took that thought process all the time about everything we would evolve very little as a species or a people.  I honestly think that is why human achievement has seemed to crawl to a halt. Most of everything we have now in  the modern world was conceived many decades ago when people still believed in things beyond themselves.

         

        • This reply was modified 1 year ago by Vknid.
        #297990

        As Ayn Rand said, the man who invented fire was probably burned at the stake for it by his peers. Inventiveness requires creative, “insane” thinking.
        Our society has discouraged out of the box thinking, so unfortunately the days of great scientific achievements are drawing to a close. Unless AI eventually takes over. Both an exciting and a frightening thought.

        As for spirituality; it may inspire to great artistic heights, but rarely to scientific achievements. Einstein, Oppenheimer, Nikola Tesla, Leonardo DaVinci, the leagues of Japanese, Chinese inventors… most of the greatest minds of the past 500 years were either Atheist or Agnostic.

        Even in heavily religious countries like the US: “Research on this topic began with the eminent US psychologist James H. Leuba and his landmark survey of 1914. He found that 58% of 1,000 randomly selected US scientists expressed disbelief or doubt in the existence of God, and that this figure rose to near 70% among the 400 “greater” scientists within his sample1. Leuba repeated his survey in somewhat different form 20 years later, and found that these percentages had increased to 67 and 85, respectively2.
        In 1996, we repeated Leuba’s 1914 survey and reported our results in Nature3. We found little change from 1914 for American scientists generally, with 60.7% expressing disbelief or doubt. This year, we closely imitated the second phase of Leuba’s 1914 survey to gauge belief among “greater” scientists, and find the rate of belief lower than ever — a mere 7% of respondents.”

        Or to put it more drastically: Without religious scientists, we would perhaps be about 20 years behind technologically. Without Atheist scientists, we would likely still be using horse carts for travel and oil lamps for light.

        Though even among artists, the best were non-religious. Beethoven, Mozart, Wagner, Debussy, Tchaikovsky, Brahms, Korsakoff, Paganini, Schuhmann, Verdi. Virtually all the big ones except Bach, Dvorjak and Vivaldi believed in nothing. The notion that spirituality is a requisite for greatness is refuted.

        #298015

        An inevitable problem with scientific advancement is that we live in a universe governed by diminishing returns. While early scientific research in any particular field could be done out of a garage, each successive layer of advancement adds cost.

        We are now at the stage where scientific research is expensive enough that politics, the human method of allocating resources, has become inextricably involved in deciding what gets researched, and thus the inevitable corruption of politics has infected science.

        A corollary to the above is that as the scientific knowledge required to approach the bleeding edge of a field increases, the difficulty also increases to train any young person in all that knowledge, in order to make them scientifically useful in advancing the field. Politics aside, I suspect this is a natural variable promoting memorization over true understanding.

        A similar problem is what I think of as the cherry-picking trap: the ability of Earth’s scientists (as a whole) to gather and store data has far exceeded our ability to analyze the data. Couple that with political control of scientific funding, and I am half-convinced that alone may be reason enough for the Fermi Paradox. :)

        Finally, those in power have historically feared technological advancements that empowered ordinary people (consider, for example, the crossbow). Most elites not only have positive greed (the desire for more power), but also negative greed (the desire to eliminate competition and preserve their power delta), and thus they would much rather keep the technological pie of the human race small than expand it.

        I suspect we are long past the time when technological advancement could liberate ordinary people from the elites. Elon Musk may prove me wrong, however. :)

        #298043
        Vknid
        Moderator

          @Wisdom

          I put zero stock in polls so I really don’t care what point in time polls said of a few hundred people here or there.  I think you are incorrect about science and religion.  They are compatible in my opinion and to my understanding while it’s not prevalent now the Catholic church played a large role in science early on.  I do not mean to say it was the only one or the best influence I am just using that as an example.  But none of that was really the point of the post.  I am trying to state that in general we no longer consider things the way we used to and to our detriment.


          @Roccandil

          So I think much of what you are saying is correct.  However I will add that I think there is some human hubris in there.  I think new ideas, thoughts and paradigms are not any further away than a garage still.  Sure, many specific things require instruments and large groups of people but to say all science and knowledge is now at that point is not correct.  That bakes in the assumption that there is X amount of knowledge in all of the universe and we have obtained Y amount of it.  I think we have not even scratched the surface of what is out there.  We just think we have.

          The data situation you mentioned is dead on. An example is how search engines evolved.  First it was about capturing the data.  Then they figured out how to sort it.  Now they can analyze it and present it in a personal manner.  And after that they began to capture and track so much more and as you eluded to cannot analyze and link it all.  But I think that is where AI comes in and why it’s being pushed.

           

           

           

           

           

           

           

           

           

           

           

           

           

           

          #298154

          @Vknid Oh, I agree: we’ll never run out of new things to find in the universe. :) It will just get harder (consider how expensive a tool the James Webb telescope is!).

          As to hubris, I agree there too, and I think of it as “Urban Hubris”. Big cities have a way of immersing those whose live in them in human construction: skyscrapers tower around you, the greenspaces exist at the behest of people, and streets may even be laid out to fit the rising of the sun. Whenever I’m in a city, I feel a persistent background message, the Babylon Effect, if you will: “I am, and none else beside me”.

          That atmosphere makes it easy to believe the lie that people are bigger than Nature, and that human imagination can be greater than reality. True scientific and technological progress can only occur, however, through great respect for the laws of the universe (one does not walk on the Moon through wishful thinking).

          If people forget that they are not greater than those laws, we may expect scientific progress to collapse.

          That’s one reason I find the modern worship of “science” to be dangerous: it glorifies humans over the universe. Science is not special: rather, the universe is so diversity dense it takes an army of specialists to begin to describe it. Yet we name discoveries after humans, as if we somehow invented the universe, and its mechanics didn’t exist until we noticed them.

          Again, I suspect the above of being a reasonable explanation for the Fermi Paradox. :)

          #298164

          Roccandil, I love reading your posts. You have some great insights

          #298177
          Vknid
          Moderator

            Not only is religious science dangerous I find it counterproductive. Once we cease to consider all possibilities, including the possibility we are wrong, the evolution of our knowledge slows.  Historically, humans are almost always wrong.  To reach any point in time where we assume that we are infallible is not only insane but we succeed in walking science backwards.  Anyone who uses the words “the science is settled” needs to not be listened to with an authority in my opinion.

            Personally, I look at the universe and see how endless it is knowing we as a species will never understand everything or even most things about it. And at the same time I take that as a sign of God’s love for us as it was created for us.  I know there are scientists who look and see the rules, logic and equations behind “the magic”.  But unless one is willing to consider that those rules and logic sets formed from nothingness, for me, it leads me to God.

          Viewing 10 posts - 1 through 10 (of 10 total)
          • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

          Subscribe to our mailing list to get the new updates!

          SIGN UP FOR UPDATES!

          NAVIGATION