Proverbs 10

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November 25, 2023 at 11:32 am #309951
Audie
Proverbs 10
1. The Proverbs of Solomon. A wise son makes a glad father, but a foolish son is a sorrow to his mother.

Several times throughout Proverbs, Solomon addresses his “son” and sometimes “sons”.

Solomon was a king. His sons, then, would have been princes, and very likely at least one of them would someday be the king after Solomon.

While it is good to see the book of Proverbs as wisdom for everyone, it is also good to see that Solomon was addressing his sayings to certain people, or certain kinds of people. In creating those proverbs, Solomon was trying to give his wisdom to the national rulers who would come after him, his sons directly but perhaps also their sons after them.

I want to make two points that, while they do not contradict each other, the second should make us men be sober-minded about the first.

The first point is this: the Bible strongly supports male headship.

From the creation, when God made the man first, then the woman to be his helper, male headship was also established. Throughout the Bible, fathers were the head of their family. Israel rooted themselves in the covenants God made with their fathers; Abraham, Isaacs, Jacob, then the sons of Jacob. In the New Testament, Jesus’ disciples were men (contrary to the “Son of God” movie that inserted a woman among them) and in the epistles church authority positions are restricted to men. In the family, the husband being the head of the wife is compared to how Christ is the head of the church.

The second point is this: people, especially women, have very good reasons to say men have made male headship a distasteful and even abusive idea.

Looking at it simply from the standpoint of men and women, I could go quite a while with how men have abused: marital infidelity and unfaithfulness, physical and mental abuses, men blaming women for their own moral weaknesses and failings, men degrading women in their attitudes and conduct and insulting language, men using marriage and romance as a “power trip” to build up some image of their own dominance and “manhood”, sex before marriage being seen as some kind of “rite of passage” where a boy becomes a man, rape and other forms of sexual deviancy and abuse, wives being discarded for the newer prettier and younger, women forced into prostitution of other kinds of sexual exploitation and sexual slavery. If we consider that each of just these abuses have happened many, many millions of times through human history, we may well be shocked by how evil we men have been toward women.

Men are fallen and sinful beings. We have taken the good things God has given us, and we’ve made them mean and ugly; nonetheless, those things are still good, they do tell us how things should be, even if we men fail to make them that way.

The failure of men at male headship does not negate male headship, any more than our failures at marriage negate marriage.

Still, male headship being good does not mean the abuses can be pushed aside and ignored; if anything, it makes them all the more serious, all the more evil and vile, and give us men all the more reasons to try to avoid such abuses.

I will offer two aspects for at least the beginnings for men to become better.

First, there is Christ. We would be wise to come to Him in humility and repentance, and He will make us clean of our sins, even of the pride and arrogance we have all too often displayed in our “male headship”.

Second, there are these Proverbs. We would be wise to consider these sayings, and how they might help us grow and become the “wise son”.
That is what I want to try to do here. I want to look at the sayings in Proverbs 10, and see how they can be used to understand our times and our circumstances, so we can better learn the three great virtues of Proverbs: wisdom, knowledge, and understanding.

Perhaps I should say, that is what I want to do for myself in pondering these sayings, and so in writing about what I’m pondering on, I guess I’m also hoping others will join in, even when it is in disagreement.
November 25, 2023 at 3:09 pm #309953
TowLiquor
Proverbs is what led me to my revelation a few years ago, so Proverbs holds a special place for me.

The wife and I spoke of this concept awhile back also: that men tend to use more logic whereas women use emotion more (voting for instance.) That’s why naturally throughout history men have been better suited for rank/politics/positions of important choice.
November 25, 2023 at 4:01 pm #309954
Vknid
Moderator
Many people will take excerpts from the Bible and say it means XYZ. Sometimes that is correct and sometimes it is not. Whenever I see either a very poignant Bible excerpt or one I don’t fully understand I look at the whole chapter. Looking at the context of what’s going on in that portion does not diminish meaning, it makes it more accurate and enhances the depth.

Looking at verses with zero context has a lot to do with why so many women think Christianity is anti-female.

For example, many get hung-up on this and scream, SEE! IT’S MYSOGNIST!

“Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.”–Ephesians 5:22

If you stop there and you are uninformed you would think that Christianity places more focus on men. Not true. This is a few verses later.

“Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her”–Ephesians 5:25

And of course if you know about Catholicism, Mary is what I would describe as the Mother of the Church. She is exalted 1 step down from being worshipped. Some would argue with that but it’s not the point.

The reality is all this infighting is just political tribal nonsense pushed from the top down to keep people fighting. Men and women are of equal value but they typically play different roles as they are generally better at different things. Is that a social construct? To a degree but only because it’s a biological reality first.

When feminism rolled into hatred for men those women thought they would raise themselves up by standing on men. This happened and men were damaged. The CRITCAL miscalculation the feminists made is that men and women need each other and what hurts men, hurts women, hurts men etc.

So here we are today where people have listened to lies for decades and they cannot figure out why they are alone and miserable. Women are ending up with cats and box wine and men with beer and their hand. It does not have to be this way. If we lean into what we are good at as male or female instead of trying to fight it, most folks would reach contentment. None of this is new. It’s all in the Bible.
November 25, 2023 at 4:12 pm #309955
Vknid
Moderator
@TowLiquor

Your mention of Revelation reminds of when I found Matthew 24. I always struggled with Revelation in regards to end times and I could not figure out why God would make it so mysterious if he wanted us to know this valuable info. Well, Matthew 24 is the Cliff Notes of Revelation. In a couple of paragraphs Jesus explains the parts you have to know very plainly. I read this chapter often.

In fact if you research it a bit Jesus tells you when the end is VERY near and when the timer is nearly over. If you read that chapter now and don’t have chills up and down your spine entangled with fear then I don’t know what else to say.

“You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.” –Sounds like about now

“Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, 11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.” –Again sounds like now and if you think about it the whole World would know Jesus commonly without the internet.

“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house” –This describes the Anti-Christ himselg coming to the Temple in Jerusalem.

“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.” –I refer to this often when people say we are in the end times. Maybe. But clearly it is said we will not know.
November 25, 2023 at 4:33 pm #309956
TowLiquor
@Vknid “revelation” that I meant was when God made himself known to me, not to the Book.

1 thing I will say in terms of the book Revelation is that, although vague, it shouldnt come as a fear to anyone who believes. Because those who Know are aware of where they will end up after this mess called Life.
November 25, 2023 at 4:51 pm #309959
Vknid
Moderator
Ah, my misunderstanding. Well my points were still valid in my mind they just did not apply as directly as I thought.

“Because those who Know are aware of where they will end up after this mess called Life.”

I have never understood this thought but I hear it often. How can anyone be sure of where they will end up? I mean there is much discussion between denominations whether there is a hell or a heaven. To me that is a meaningless dispute because no one will know the details of that for sure and we all know more or less what we need to do in any case.

I have told Christian friends who have said this group or that group will go to hell or won’t be resurrected that they cannot say that because condemnation is not a power they have. That right and power rests solely with God. And in my opinion the same goes for salvation. Yes, we can hope and do our best but it’s not a power we have. We cannot grant ourselves salvation.
- This reply was modified 5 months ago by Vknid.
November 27, 2023 at 11:06 pm #310073
Audie
4 A slack hand causes poverty, but the hand of the diligent makes rich.

If I were to define my attempts at education with one word, I might choose the word “unfocused”.

I spent time in college, and have an Associate’s and a Bachelor’s degree, but in two very different things, and the work I do now has almost nothing to do with either of those things. In a very real sense, my formal education has been a failure, and one reason is because, to borrow a phrase from some popular memes, I did not understand the assignment.

In my education, my mind was pulled too much by far too many things. To put it simpler, I did not make myself apply myself as I should have.

I hope I’ve gotten better. I’ve worked at the same place for over a decade, and even at the same position for most of that time. And that’s in part one reason I can apply myself to what may be the one real passion I’ve had since I was a child, the desire to write.

So, I’ve learned a bit of diligence, and even have a small amount of what could be considered wealth. Not much, but a small bit.

Still, I do look back on my time in school and college with some regret. I was not smart, I was not wise. I wasted too much time.
December 4, 2023 at 8:58 am #310318
Audie
2 Treasures gained by wickedness do not profit, but righteousness delivers from death.

Our desires are tricky things. Even when what we desire is not itself bad, we may still go about trying to win the thing we desire in a way that is wrong.

Wealth is not evil. The Bible gives us examples of men such as Job and Abraham, men who were wealthy and also righteous because of their faith in God. Later in Proverbs 10, there is this saying, “22 The blessing of the LORD makes rich, and he adds no sorrow with it.”

Wealth is not evil, but the desire for wealth may make us fall into evil. In this day, examples are many. Because certain cities in the US have tried to be lenient on crime, criminals have become bolder in their crimes. There are many videos of people openly robbing stores and walking out with stolen goods, and doing so fearlessly, knowing the law will do nothing to them.

I’ve had my struggles with this desire for wealth, for more and more. It did not lead me to such crimes, but it did cause me to feel discouragement and maybe even despair, to long to get to greener pastures in some imagined other side, wherever that might be.

Even religion, even Christianity, can be fuel to this fire. One of the New Testament epistles warns against those who teach that “Godliness is a means of gain”. In the past several decades, perhaps the most popular false teaching coming from the American church has been the Prosperity Gospel, the Health and Wealth Gospel. Christian television is filled with men and women who teach this fake gospel.

For myself, what has helped was when I tried to take seriously the New Testament’s commands for believers to be content with what they have: “Godliness with contentment is great gain”, and “I’ve learned to be content in whatever state I’m in”. I could see that God has already blessed me greatly, and I could be grateful to Him for how He has blessed me.
December 5, 2023 at 8:22 am #310374
Maverick
For myself, what has helped was when I tried to take seriously the New Testament’s commands for believers to be content with what they have: “Godliness with contentment is great gain”, and “I’ve learned to be content in whatever state I’m in”.

Truth. Back in my youth I engaged in certain entrepreneurial ventures and my primary focus always on what I’d do with the money when I got it. Needless to say, none of them ever worked out for all sorts of “strange” reasons which I will not get into here.

Later on though practical and spiritual counsel I realized that it’s futile to try and “make things happen”. When you’re content you make the most of what you have and are at peace with that. And if you happen to receive more you’re prepared for it in both a spiritual and practical sense.

We’re never given more than we can handle.
December 10, 2023 at 8:52 pm #310580
Audie
3 The LORD does not let the righteous go hungry, but he thwarts the craving of the wicked.

In trying to think about this proverb, something the Jesus said came to my mind, and that is also pointed to by the footnotes in the Bible I used.

Matthew 6
30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. 34 Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

I know I’m not all that good at avoiding anxiety, so I’m writing at a mirror as much as I am to anyone else.Perhaps anxiety is one of the way that our desires, our cravings, can be thwarted. Worry and stress and anxiety tend to drain a person.

A few years ago, at the place I work, I tried to make a move up the ladder, accepting a position a little above that the common worker. I think that was a mistake. I found the stress and anxiety to be too much. There were other circumstances that made the job more difficult than it should have been, but after a few months, I was accepted into another department where I didn’t have any kind of position, and I’ve been happy to stay that way.

I don’t think that “give no thought for tomorrow” must mean we live a planless, drifting-along kind of life. A farmer sows his crops, looking forward to the time of harvest. A student may, in the same way, receive education and training to do work he or she enjoys.

Jesus said to seek God’s kingdom and God’s righteousness, and our heavenly Father will provide us with the things we need.

One way God provides for us is through our work. I’d even say that one part of the righteousness we are to be seeking is such virtues as diligence in our work, doing the best work we know how to do, improving in our work, and avoid such vices as sloth and laziness and shoddy efforts.

Perhaps that is one part of what we are being taught in this proverb and other parts of the Bible; the important thing is God’s righteousness. True, in the sense of salvation from sin, God must give us His righteousness, because we cannot earn that from Him. But in the sense of growing more like Christ, then that is what we are to most strongly pursue, and a part of that is to not be worried about these other things, knowing that God will provide.
December 11, 2023 at 3:02 pm #310599
Maverick
Well, as Eric July says “You ain’t built for that!”.

People need to be honest about their capabilities and not feel obligated to join in the rat race because “that’s just what people do”.

Of course that also means that you have to be realistic about how your life will probably turn out when you are true to yourself. For example, I knew of a comedian who realized from an early age where is talent lay. His parents were never discouraging but his father did counsel him with the advice that show business is not a steady gig, so he would have to temper his expectations and plan (his life) accordingly.

So he lived his dream and worked as a cab driver on the side to make ends meet. He died recently, never got rich nor did he have family of his own but in his own words he lived a happy and fulfilled life.

We should all be so lucky.
December 11, 2023 at 8:52 pm #310620
Vknid
Moderator
“So he lived his dream and worked as a cab driver on the side to make ends meet. He died recently, never got rich nor did he have family of his own but in his own words he lived a happy and fulfilled life.

We should all be so lucky.”

“For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?” –Mark 8:36

Life is about heaven sure, but if we focus on life itself it is contentment that matters and not any period of happiness.

I am not rich. I will never be rich. I used the talents God gave me to be pretty comfortable. I made many mistakes but I have a daughter. If I can finish raising her to be a great person on a number of levels then I did well. And that’s all I want before I go. The last almost 20 years has been about doing that properly.

This is the thing people now don’t get. You don’t reach contentment through the gratification of self, you reach it through the denial of self on behalf of others.
- This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by Vknid.
December 12, 2023 at 1:31 pm #310631
Maverick
Some people take denial of self to mean prostrating oneself for others which is kind of stupid. Believe it or not you as an individual have physical and spiritual needs and if you don’t take care of yourself you will be unable to properly care for others.

Balance is the key.
December 12, 2023 at 11:09 pm #310653
Audie
“Of course that also means that you have to be realistic about how your life will probably turn out when you are true to yourself.”

I have to agree, I’m not someone who should try to climb the ladder, so to speak.

And, yes, there is a trade-off. The people who have the positions and the stress also have the rewards, such as the higher salaries.

But there have been good parts to it, too. I’ve gotten more into writing in a few different forms, and one reason is because my work load is reasonable, which gives me some time to sit down and write. But have the work also frees my writing, meaning I can write what I think is important and not be too concerned about what will sell.
December 13, 2023 at 5:06 pm #310664
Vknid
Moderator
@Maverick

“Some people take denial of self to mean prostrating oneself for others which is kind of stupid.”

Anything taken to the extreme is generally bad. Following Christ is not about intentionally torturing yourself but it is about placing others above yourself. In a world where everyone did that can you imagine the kindness, assistance, patients and understanding that would be shown to you on a regular basis? I imagine Heaven must be like that.

Even if you choose 100% not to believe in God, acting as if there is one is being a better person by doing for others and making the world a better place around you. It’s all the “ME!” that is destroying what is around us.

I have not heard a concrete argument from anyone explaining why believing in God/Bible is a bad thing. If you do and you are wrong you end up closing your eyes one last time knowing you lived a good life and probably with family around you. If you lived a Godless life and you were wrong and the consequences are dire.

@Audie

“I have to agree, I’m not someone who should try to climb the ladder, so to speak.”

I was for some period of time. I ended up working at a Fortune 500 doing some high level technical stuff. It was fun at first but then Corporate reality sunk in and I was so miserable I had a hard time getting out of bed in the morning to show up.

It does not matter how much money you make, if you wake up in the morning and want to put a gun in your mouth it means nothing.

Happiness/contentment is not about the things that cost money and as such money does not create happiness. Having not enough money can cause suffering but even then it does not create happiness it just alleviates suffering and those are not the same thing.

“Money does not buy happiness but you can pick your misery” –Rodney Dangerfield
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Proverbs 10

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