What happens usually after terrible things like in Texas

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  • #269017
    Vknid
    Moderator

      I wish when such horrible things happened, people would use it as an excuse to sit down and figure stuff out instead of a reason to either pander to whatever or just yell at people you disagree with.

      This is why things don’t change.  It’s not about being right ultimately or “winning”, it’s supposed to be about figuring out the best way forward.

      Clearly there are reasons such things happen, some of those reasons can be influenced with legislation and some cannot.  We as a people should work on the things we can control and influence through not only smart policy but good social change.  At the point people want to “win” or feel superior or be right is the point at which we all lose.

      “What is history but the story of how politicians squandered the blood and treasure of the human race” — Thomas Sowell

      #269018

      After such things we get to opposing narrative in the media;

      Those calling for ALL guns from law abiding citizens to be removed (so only the government has weapons to control the citizens).

      Those calling for expanded mental health resources/funding, and enforce/create new laws that would prevent criminals from getting firearms while allowing LAWFUL citizen to keep their LEGAL firearms (as per constitutional amendments).

      And how such “terrible things” always seems to happen close to an election… as if they are scheduled to happen.

      #269033
      Mustangride1
      Moderator

        Evil is in this world and will forever be in this world!

         

        You want to know who to blame?

         

        Politicians and Media. Politicians keep sending Billions and really Trillions overseas, That money could have been used to Harden our schools, build homeless housing sub-divisions, actually provide medical care for Americans, and even fix infrastructure.

         

        But lets talk about it!

         

        People talk without knowing. I cannot tell you how many post I HAVE READ about why weren’t the doors locked? First let me say a gun is the best and fastest locksmith around, Very few locks will stop a breach entry. So that point is irrelevant. Even more irrelevant if the shooter is a known student or has family employed at the school and trusted, so the school would open the door for the person. Windows also make easy entry.

         

        Let me give you an example: One of our High schools alone has a mile plus footprint encircling it, 6 separate parking lots 8 including the sports complex. That is 8 potential entry areas to cover with over a mile parameter. From there it has 23 main campus entry points (through doors open during session and over 50 more locked that a simple blast from a pistol would open and hundreds of windows.

         

        People say we harden our government buildings, true,we do. Those buildings are also much smaller with typically less than 3 entries and all guarded with armed guards. You cannot move 3,000 plus students and employee’s through 3 entries throughout the day without dramatically increasing the school day time. Then there is the constant students out of class for many legitimate reasons or delivery personnel or  other support staff.

         

        Can they be hardened? Yes 100%. That is where politicians come in to play. Instead of just talking about our kids and their safety, they could be appropriating funds on all levels of government to do so.  So how would it be done?

         

        Using the same school again as an example: You place a fence around the main campus of no less than 8 feet high, and so it does not look like our kids are being sent to prison plant a climbing bush on them something like (Pyracantha) use landscaping to make it even more secure but also appealing. Then you take the parking lots and drop off points and have entry zones where all persons pass through a metal detector to get on the main body of the school. You hire armed guards for each of those entries 8 for this school, plus have at minimum 2 resource officers on campus  as well as other guards for entry points or roaming. I know plenty of retired Law Enforcement and Military who would do it.

         

        You also have to accept that even in the most protected guarded environments evil will still find a way in, so be prepared for it when it happens as it will. But at least we can do everything to mitigate the loss of life.

         

        But this takes money, it takes politicians saying enough is enough and make our schools safe. How many times has it and will it happen before they do?

         

        Well here is the hard cold truth. So long as their is political gain and talking points to be had from these events, is how long it will be aloud to continue.!

         

        I saw politicians on Tv and Social media while the bodies were still bleeding out using this as political talking points, I saw the media doing it as well. They are the ones with blood on their hands, they could have hardened schools years ago. But it is not in their interest.

        #269034
        Vknid
        Moderator

          Clearly you guys are level headed and can discuss such things without losing your minds.

          I agree too that the media and politicians (and then some) will use such things to their benefit regardless of how that might inflame or worsen the situation.

          Here are my thoughts on this.  Just mine, not saying I am right.

          Mental Health – asylums need to come back, there is literally few places (if any) to put people crazy enough to hurt other people

          Guns – banning them is silly, but some common sense things could be done to help POSSIBLY… waiting periods, better checks etc (nothing draconian and NO register)

          Morality – this is where the rubber meets the road.  The issue is NOT that you have people who shoot people, the issue is you have people who are willing to harm others.  The implement they choose does not matter.  Whether it’s a knife, a gun or a claw hammer the root problem is the person is willing to kill someone else.  So how do you bring back morality?  Stop stomping God out of everything.  I am not calling for a state sponsored religion I am saying stop persecuting it on a federal level.  And yes they do.

           

          Sure there are many more facets to this but these are my main points.  Again, I am not saying I am right I am just talking out loud.

           

          #269036
          DarthVengeant
          Premium

            There are crazy and disturbed people in the world that will do things no matter how many laws or rules are implemented. Flat out. Bottom line. They have happened through human history, and will happen again until we are extinct. Those are the cold hard fact. Taking guns away wont stop lunatics, it will just have us all unarmed and further controlled by our out of control government, which is the true hidden agenda all this “outrage”.

            Reactionary laws and divisive pandering idiocy is not the way. Look what all the reactionary nonsense did for us for two years with COVID. No one sat down, waited a few days, and calmly and RATIONALLY thought things out. That’s what needs to happen here.

            It’s time to stop throwing money at other countries while we have many crisis’s here at home. Instead, we need to fund and repair our Mental Health system, because it is utterly failing and broken. I work in healthcare. I see the ER night after night. I see the lunatics out on the streets in my town. That right there will help deter incidents like this from happening so much. Not taking away more of our freedoms with reactionary laws.

            But, having a president who just wants to play divisive politics and a blame game right off the bat ain’t helping anything or anyone folks.

            #269050
            Mustangride1
            Moderator

              @Vknid
              With limited exceptions all guns bought legally have a background check ran on the person. That includes gun shows despite the lies the left tells. Waiting periods have been proven not to work, in fact in one briefing I was at the FBI instructor said several of these shootings were so well planned out they took in to account for back-ground checks and waiting periods  to give them more planning time even.

               

              Asylums, only help when a person can be found and is qualified as DIR KOKOOO. Those are not the problems to start with.  We associate these people as mentally ill or crazy, and yes some have warning signs but are NOT crazy by any stretch. Angry at the world yes THE Doc Holiday quote is dead accurate and you will never catch them, until its to late.  It is another Media and Political talking point, nothing more. Anger and Hate are not mental illness they are emotions “dont argue it” it is what it is.

               

              Morality is a BIG thing. When I was in school in the 80’s California, we had kids that wore knives on their belts, had Guns and Bows in their truck not even concealed. Hell more than a few times teachers had to say please go put the gun in your truck or you can leave it with me till the end of the day. We never though about using them on people.  Parenting and social morals were much higher, that is a big chunk of the problem today.

              #269078
              Mustangride1
              Moderator

                @Darthvengence,

                No politicians or media member wants to talk this out, its not good for ratings or politics, to do so. Hard cold truth.

                Florida now requires ALL schools to have armed guards, from my friends down there they are thankful for them and kids have grown not only accustom to seeing their “Guardians” but become friends with them and do not see guns as a fear or something magical or scarry. I would have no issues paying a little more on my taxes to pay for Armed Guards on campus as well as having teacher who want to be trained to get trained so long as part of that training is yearly firearms requlaification.  The world we live in demands it.

                 

                But that scenario is one politicians and media hate because criminals look for soft targets and knowing they could be walking in to a force of force situations makes them stop and think and probably find another target. Does NOT help the Media or Politicians its why very few know about the Florida Law…. They didnt want it catching on or showing a state said NO MORE.

                #269080
                Vknid
                Moderator

                  I disagree @mustangride1 , I think asylums played a much bigger role in this type of thing than you think.  Take @DarthVengeant comment about lunatics he/she sees on a regular basis for example.  I am not trying to say it would solve all the issues, nothing would but it’s a huge help.

                  At the schools here we have a policeman stationed (and armed) at every school.  They are great to have there for a number of reasons and I agree with such a thing.

                  As I mentioned initially nothing will solve all of this but some easy things could be done to make it less likely.

                  #269086

                  One of the things that always annoys me is that people always blame guns but never the person behind it, as well as the people closest to the shooter and the authorities knowing that the person is mentally unstable but refuse to do anything about it.

                  We’ve VERY strict gun laws in the UK for nearly 30 years or so now. You need to have a very special licence to have one here. One of my uncles is a hunter but he has to fill in some special paperwork to own one.

                  Personally, I’m neutral on the subject. I believe people have the right to defend themselves but also need to be mentally stable enough to have one. Even the slightest history of mental health should prevent them from owning a gun.

                  #269090
                  Vknid
                  Moderator

                    @DragonLady

                    You make a lot of sense.  I am with you on the blaming guns thing.  I mean ultimately that is treating the symptom and not the illness.  Which is why nothing changes. But your point about it being a failure of the people around this person and of the “system” I agree.  I guess that makes it even easier to blame something else.

                    “Even the slightest history of mental health should prevent them from owning a gun.”

                    If that would be the case NO ONE would own one. And it would be abused by the government to make it that way. Now should that mean anyone diagnosed with anything should have one? No, not at all.  There has to be a balance.

                    Let’s use me for example.  I am technically bi-polar which for me just presents itself as mood swings when untreated.  Should I be disallowed from having a weapon even though I am in no way a danger to anyone or myself?

                    EDIT – I want to point out how this thread proves that people with different ideas and thoughts on a topic can rationally talk about them without yelling or hating each other.

                     

                    • This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by Vknid.
                    • This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by Vknid.
                    #269100
                    Mustangride1
                    Moderator

                      Asylums were for (truly mentally ill) and when I say that I am not talking people we do not agree with their life style or how they dress or act. You understand men dressing as women or homosexuality use to end people up in the Looney-Bin, don’t you?

                      Can you imagine how many would be there today?

                       

                      Also when talking mental illness, there is a lot of “diagnosed mental illness” today in our children that in my youth a belt cured instantly. It has become a BIG Business. Then we have our vets who legitimately do have PTSD. So here is something else to think about. Our kids diagnosed and our vets could then fall under some politicians law about no one having been diagnosed with a mental illness can own a gun. You know as well as I do someone would try it and in some states might succeed.

                       

                      You cannot just lock a persons up because they are mentally different 14th amendment saw to that. It takes a medical diagnoses of  being a Threat to themselves or others OR being mentally incapable of providing for themselves. The last part I always shook my head at as it is a threat to themselves, yet attorneys found ways to show unless they could not get food from a trash can they were able to provide for themselves. You want to know who the sick people are? its Attorneys who are so out of touch with morality they find arguments to justify  even letting people who are a danger to themselves continue to be so, and to others!

                       

                      I do know the history of asylums very well by the way, and also know the horrors of them. I volunteers for a couple years at one for extra college credits. I will say right here right now what I have for over 30 years. “There is people in there you wonder why when you see some of the people we call sane walking around” that is not meant as a joke either, there was some so smart I had to stop and remind myself they were the patients, they just could not function well outside that environment or around others. Today we would label them with something, medicate them and be done with it.

                      Arkansas has Officers on all campuses, also armed teachers though I cannot tell you how many. I do know I just saw the newest enhanced carry class list enrollment and I know there is more than a few teachers for this class. They also got told they must first take the regular conceal carry class first. That is another issue, while we are talking about all this.

                       

                      Arkansas is Constitutional carry (for those who dont know) it means we do not need no stinking permits to carry a gun. When that became law of the land crime dropped. Fact. But WHY should we still require 2 separate training courses (cough cough politicians and state wanting money) We could make it a 4 day course including qualification and have plenty of armed teachers and staff in the schools. This is another issue where politicians fail the people.  I think about it often, I know many teachers that are avid outdoorsmen and women who could be carrying. The local High School alone of the 250 teachers more than half hunt as do the janitors, that would be near 165 armed responders in the case of a shooter.

                       

                      People might not like the idea of armed teachers or guards, but the alternative is worse than hurt feelings!

                      #269102

                      @Mustangride1

                      I actually like the idea of armed guards at schools. Especially if they were given proper weapons and training and not this teaser gun nonsense like what we’ve got here with our police.

                      #269103
                      Vknid
                      Moderator

                        @mustangride1

                        I did not say I wanted the asylums from the 1950’s to come back.  I want the concept of asylums back so that truly dangerous people have a place to go.  Do you not understand that right now THEY HAVE NO PLACE TO GO?  Do you not pay attention to the news?  Almost every time we have a mass shooting, especially something as horrible as a school shooting, the person was a known whackadoo usually known to the cops.  But until laws are broken there is little they can do.

                        Look man, I am not saying you are wrong about the asylums of the past.  I am not at all dismissing your life experience. But I think there is a place somewhere between shoving gay people in an asylum and having almost no place for dangerous people.  There has to be.

                        Now as to your comment about most crazy folks just taking some meds and going on their way and being fine.  That is not reality.  Meds help some folks, they help me as a matter of fact but they are not magic pills AND you have to be willing to take them.  Some folks are not and I know that for a fact.

                        To the point of having armed people at schools.  Not only do I love that idea where I live they do it.  Every school here has a police officer posted at the school and he is fully armed.

                         

                        This is a good thread.  More people need to speak about such things openly and be willing to share different ideas without losing their minds.  That’s how problems get solved.

                        #269105
                        Mustangride1
                        Moderator

                          @Vknid, your own quote says it all “But until laws are broken there is little they can do.”

                          That is EXACTLY my point and about kids being diagnosed and vets with PTSD.  Government has been proven it cannot be trusted. They WILL take advantage of people who have been to remove or restrict their rights. RED-FLAG-LAWS are a perfect example of them. They in all aspects violate numerous constitutional safeguards in the name of “Public Safety”. How about all our civil liberties lost or restricted out of fear and in the name of “Public Safety” since 911?

                           

                           

                          I remember a time getting on a plane meant you walk on the plane without strip searches or pat-down or ever seeing a metal detector. I remember going in government buildings without that either. I sure remember a time before the government kept “watch-list” on citizens and remember a time the FISA Court would have never been allowed. NO SIR, I will not trust the government with people medical history especially in the mental department where I have seen multiple diagnoses on the SAME persons contradicting themselves.

                          And YES they absolutely have someplace to go, EVERY State has such places, they are called State Mental Hospitals, or Mental Wards.  You may not have known about them but they are in service right now. Louisiana has multiple locations. And the truly dangerous are placed in them and if they commit a criminal act the Prison Mental wards. Same for each and every state.

                           

                          But again your own words speak to what has to be done first, a Law has to be broken to restrict a persons constitutional rights and liberties. A court has to be involved and a fair trial had. I sure do not want a government that can strip you of your rights and liberties based off some Doctor that may well not like guns or your choice of lifestyle, do you?

                           

                          Seriously do you want to see a country where your liberties and rights can be stripped away without due process of law no court of law, just some Dr’s word?

                          Do you want some Dr, or some neighbor who may not like you, your politics or your lifestyle to make a call and have the police come bust in to your house and take you or your belongings without due process of law in a court of law?

                           

                          That is actions based out of fear and in the name of safety without stopping to think about the ramifications of giving up those rights and liberties.  We absolutely do have the facilities you asked about. But we also have a legal way in which people can be admitted to them involuntarily and that is by due process.

                           

                          #269106

                          The number of mass shootings in America is just insane and at  this point everyone should have noticed that something needs to be done and thoughts and prayers to god ain’t doing shit (what a shocker).

                          My 2 cents is that with America already being fully pumped with weapons, banning and fully restricting and collecting them won’t work as effectively as in other countries since there’s so many and the criminals wouldn’t turn them in anyway so that wouldn’t work but there should be extremely strict background checks, mental health checks and the age limit should be way higher and and restricted access to big rifles, high volume ammo clips and dangerous modifications etc.

                          I think you know you’re in just an extremely sad state when you need to discuss about having heavily armed guards at a fucking elementary school, it’s just insane. At that point you should realize something has gone terribly wrong somewhere along the way when fucking kids can’t even feel safe going to school and the leading cause of deaths is getting sprayed and slaughtered by some gun freak sicko.

                          I feel like the biggest problem is clinging too long for the muh guns that now that there is so many guns, it is true that just taking them away won’t help anymore like in England for example.

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