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The value of life

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  • June 28, 2022 at 9:50 am #274155
    Wisdom

      @Mustangride1: certainly, some states are better than others, and Florida is probably better than all. Which as you say is why people are fleeing there from more totalitarian places like Cal.

      But even a place like Florida, when compared directly to countries like Singapore, Serbia, Hungary or even Russia is comparatively socialist and dysfunctional. The amount of regulation, the degree of taxation, the racial bigotry taught in schools, etc are definitely worse than in any of the countries I mentioned. Likewise look at the level of violent crime, education, substance abuse, suicide and so on. By nearly all measures, even Florida performs worse.

      I travel a lot on business as well (less now with covid). Trust me, once you experience the world you start to see just how bad the US has become.

      which…
      @Viknid
      is NOT to say that I have any disdain for the American people. Quite the contrary. Some of the very best people I ever met in my life were Americans. I’d say most were. You are absolutely right, the problem is usually government. Everywhere you go in the world.

      The difference I see: Americans are more eager than others to weaponize government against people they don’t like. Why this is… we can only speculate. I suppose it’s due to the social divide, which you don’t have to that degree in more homogenous nation states. There’s no talk of impending civil war in any Euro country (except for Ukraine obviously, which is not a civil war).

      And I think this eagerness to weaponize government led to the totalitarian power the US government has when compared to these other places. I think this is a direct result of the US becoming too big and eventually too divided for its own good. That’s why I keep saying: 1. split the country   2. stop trying to weaponize government and instead work towards reducing its size. And yes, that includes social policy.

      I think we all agree government is the problem. So it would be logical to reduce its power. Resist the urge to use it against the other side.

      June 28, 2022 at 11:20 am #274169
      Vknid
      Moderator

        @Wisdom

        Yes, we can for sure agree that government is the issue.  100% without a doubt.

        Is the US too big? No but yes.  It’s too big to be run solely by a centralized government without using dictatorial tactics. However, this is the reason for the states. The states are supposed to essentially be independent of the federal government in most ways. But what has happened in the last few decades is the dictation of policy and law from the federal gov down onto the states.  This is one of the ways we became so divided if not one of the primary ways.  The left/uni-party/establishment has pushed for this and is now trying to solidify that power.

        June 28, 2022 at 11:27 am #274170
        Mustangride1
        Moderator

          WHAT????
          Florida has NO let me repeat that NO State tax income tax.
          Florida has a 6% Sales tax.
          Individual Counties set their Sales tax as well.
          Individual counties also have Property taxes but there is also deductions for them.

          Florida is extremely free, Drugs are not that big a problem and educations is very good.  I really have to wonder where you get your facts? See I lived there, I know about it and still go and see friends frequently from Miami to Jacksonville and Tampa. You sir are very misinformed.

          The USA has been a Nation for 231 years as ratified. Its strength is in that Unity, a Unity that has been discussed many times, and though we have our problems that unity still makes us the greatest nation on the planet. Government through history is always a problem and why people tend to remove that government and replace it with one less intrusive (even spelled out in the declaration) But they do not split up the nation as a rule.

          June 28, 2022 at 3:13 pm #274180
          Wisdom

            @Vknid: fully agree, a return to state’s rights would be best. Different strokes for different folks. A pluralistic model would be best. That way people could choose under which system they want to live, or which state best suits their personal morality and economic ideas.
            Which again may be a good argument to split up the US and maybe just keep it as a free trade zone with maybe some form of limited joint foreign policy.


            @Mustangride1             I know, Florida levies no state income tax. But there’s still the federal 35%. And the property taxes are quite high, at least compared to Europe. In countries like Germany or Austria (high tax countries), the average property tax for a single family home is somewhere around 500$.  Others are around 200. Most Florida counties start at several thousand.
            Don’t get me started on Florida agricultural laws. For example farm land reductions for property tax are only available to those who use particular pesticides and grow particular crops. I know this since a friend of mine tried to start an organic farm there for some particular crops, and was told he either has to grow the same pesticide ridden garbage as everyone else, or forget about subsidies. That’s just one example of many of why even Florida is not “free”. Try the same in places like Poland, Hungary etc and they don’t care how you grow your crops. If you grow stuff, it’s considered farm land, and operating at a profit is entirely your own responsibility.

            What strength is there exactly in this American “unity” you speak of? Except governmental overreach. Unity only ever benefits the rulers, because they can dilute the people’s voice and easier cheat on elections.
            And yes, throughout history people have toppled their governments once they became too corrupt. Except with the advent of modern machines of war, that never happened again. For the last 150 years there hasn’t been a single successful revolution in any industrialized nation (unless orchestrated from the outside like the Russian revolution in 1918 or the revolution in Romania). Not one. There have been attempts (Jan 6th in the US, yellow vests in France), but they have all been beaten down. Modern governments can’t be defeated by the people anymore.
            I always laugh when conservatives tell me they need the 2nd amendment to protect themselves from government.

            https://freebeacon.com/issues/swalwell-suggests-government-use-nukes-americans-resisting-gun-confiscation/

            “On Friday, during an exchange over his proposal to confiscate certain firearms, Representative Eric Swalwell (D., Calif.) suggested the government would use nuclear weapons against Americans who resisted confiscation efforts.

            “And it would be a short war my friend,” he tweeted. “The government has nukes.”

            Obviously he didn’t mean the government would use nukes. It wouldn’t have to. It could just send the military. But the sentiment is clear. If the people ever dared to oppose the regime, the regime would eradicate them. That’s the kind of regime the US has. Fake elections and rulers on the same level as Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein and the rest. That’s why I consider the US a failed state. Just another 3rd world shithole dictatorship. The only difference is that in places like Iran or Venezuela, the people are smart enough to know they live in a dictatorship.

            June 28, 2022 at 5:18 pm #274198
            Mustangride1
            Moderator

              There you go again, Federal income tax on the vast majority of people is:

              Tax Rate
              For Single Filers                             For Married Individuals Filing Joint Returns                       For Heads of Households
              10% $0 to $10,275                             $0 to $20,550                                                                             $0 to $14,650

              12% $10,275 to $41,775                   $20,550 to $83,550                                                                 $14,650 to $55,900

              22% $41,775 to $89,075                   $83,550 to $178,150                                                                $55,900 to $89,050

              24% $89,075 to $170,050                 $178,150 to $340,100                                                            $89,050 to $170,050

              32% $170,050 to $215,950                   $340,100 to $431,900                                                             $170,050 to $215,950

               

              35% $215,950 to $539,900                    $431,900 to $647,850                                                          $215,950 to $539,900

               

              37% $539,900 or more                         $647,850 or more                                                                   $539,900 or more

               

              Stop making things up that are blatantly not true and can be proven false so easily. The median household income in the US in 2019 was $68,703  which is 12% tax bracket. Single Men Median 57,000 again 12% and Single women 47,000 again 12%. Jointly the would be bumped up to 22% bracket.  Now as far as Property tax goes, it depends on the county as to the tax, My property in St Lucie County for instance cost 1.4% of the value $2,336 a year. I also have no issues paying my property tax as I know where the money is going. Also this is not Germany and really do not care what their property tax is or England’s or Australia’s as that would require me to see the entire picture.

              But I did go look at Germans income taxes to be fair… 14 to 47%,  Solidarity tax s 5.5% then there is this beauty CHURCH TAX 8 to 9%, oh lets not forget health insurance 7.3% oh and pension cannot forget pension tax 9.3% and the unemployment tax 1.2%. A potential tax of 24,325 on a person making $57,919 if im am reading the taxes correctly.  A US Citizen making the same amount would pay in yearly taxes $12,742.00. Even with a $2,336 a year property tax a house in FL is still making out better than in Germany…. You cannot compare apples and oranges, so do not try.

              I also know just enough about Florida Farms and Ranches to get me in trouble, but the reasoning behind their laws which I am very familiar with is the protection of the land. They do not want pesticides used that can harm it or the fauna and wildlife. It happened to much in the past and They put a stop to it which I FULL SUPPORT.

              JAN 6TH was in no way an attempted overthrow, that comment just like the jan-6th panel is a political talking point. 1st of all you want to over-throw a government you might want to use weapons not some Buffalo hat in your BVD’s. You quoting Swalwell LMFAO, No dude just NO. Posse comitatus, enough said about that outlandish statement by him and you for even repeating it.

               

              Now as to the Unity, In a disaster people from all walks of life come together to help. They do not ask if the person is White or Black, Gay or Straight Christian or Jew, they readily take it and return it when needed. Acts of simple kindness are all over. And let someone attack us. I remember the weeks and months after 911. There is far more good in this nation than divide.

              If the US is a Failed shithole like you say, there is nothing stopping you from leaving.

              June 29, 2022 at 2:18 am #274249
              Vknid
              Moderator

                @Wisdom

                I promise I am not trying to gang up on you man.  But if you really believe that nonsense about Jan 6th I urge to find some alternate news sources because the “insurrection” thing is absolute bull.  Calling it an overthrow attempt is beyond overplaying it.  That’s being done for political reasons only because the Democrats (and the Republicans who play nice with them) have made such a mess of things the only thing they can do is point to something nearly made up as a boogeyman. It’s all politics.

                June 29, 2022 at 4:59 pm #274278
                Wisdom

                  @Mustangride1

                  Just a few points where you may have misunderstood me. By no way am I saying Germany is a good country. On the contrary. It’s a toilet of a country. Which is why I brought it up. Property tax is very much a real tax which one must add to income tax. The US has low income tax, but extremely high property taxes. As you said, not everywhere, but even red states like Texas have like 3%. Which is insane.

                  Examples of well run countries in Europe would be Czech Rep, Hungary, Russia, Serbia and Bulgaria.  The latter has a 10% flat tax on all income.

                  As for the pesticides, you misunderstood. He would have had to use them in order for the farmland to be classified as such. I’ll ask him to send me the letter again and post it (with details removed).


                  @Vknid                  :  no offense taken, we’re just debating. No need to tiptoe around each other’s sensibilities. I consider it a privilege to disagree with someone and not have it turn into a hatefest. Seriously, we’re good man. Even though it may not come across as such, I think we probably agree on 90% of things. I’m libertarian / anarcho-capitalist with an Atheist / Euro / Jewish background and you’re conservative with a Christian / American background. We’re never going to agree on everything, it would be foolish to expect as much. But the way I see it, the left won’t make a difference between us, and there’s no way of stopping the woketard NWO without somehow building coalitions. That means compromising on a few issues here and there where it is politically beneficial. The way I see it, libertarians and conservatives can still shake hands and go separate ways afterwards. But the left will never leave either of us be. They want it all.

                  Btw you may have misunderstood me about Jan 6th. In no way do I mean to criticize the Jan 6th protests. I don’t consider it an insurrection, except against a dictatorial regime and a stolen election. And even there, I doubt it was really the protestors who led the charge. It was mostly antifa / deep state people leading the charge, and cops waving people in so they could frame it as this big attack on democracy.
                  Absolute bull, like you said :)

                  On that subject I’m probably to the right of you.

                  Where I am to the left of you (abortion, gay marriage), it’s not because I morally agree with abortion or am gay or have any kind of horse in the race there. I just fear government more than people. And I believe in a meritocratic, uncentralized society, where people are the authors of their own destiny, where the morality of an action or decision is measured by its outcome. I.e. the drug addict ruins his life, the abortion fan and promiscuous slut ends up a 45 year old single dog mama, the smoker risks lung cancer, the unvaccinated risk covid, the vaccinated risk heart disease, the gambler risks bankrupcy, etc.  Take away people’s freedom of making the “wrong” choice and you end up with a clockwork orange like society of automatons. Or china with its social credit score.
                  No thanks. I’ll take anarchism over that any day. Even if it means putting up with people I disagree with.

                  • This reply was modified 1 year, 10 months ago by Wisdom.
                  June 29, 2022 at 9:28 pm #274311
                  Mustangride1
                  Moderator

                    I’m sorry, did you really just try to say “Czech Rep, Hungary, Russia, Serbia and Bulgaria” are better countries than the US financially?
                    One a Nation that has just invaded another Country for no reason other than they want it. But ok lets look at Bulgaria, again there you go trying to make an apples to oranges comparison only citing a minimum of the over-all picture.

                    Income tax is indeed 10%, but then you have other taxes to add on .15 to .30% on estate, 20% sales tax “VAT”,  PLUS OTHER taxes both state a Municiple. I checked their Average national income and it was $21,000.00 when converted to US Dollars.  Their Maximum yearly is $60,000.00 US when converted which is $6,000.00 on income tax <possibly more in some cases>.  They pay less in Income tax yes but double what Americans do in Sales Tax, and have others.

                    There countries if you tried protesting for just one example would find you in jail or worse. Even you typing what you have about the US, about them, if living in them could get you arrested. And you want to use these countries as examples?  No there is no comparison to them and and the US. Not Socially, Not Economically and Certainly not in Freedoms.

                    If the US is so bad, then why are so many from all Nations still coming here?

                    June 30, 2022 at 1:14 am #274335
                    Vknid
                    Moderator

                      @Wisdom

                      Yes I think we probably do agree on much.  Maybe more than you think.  Am I am Christian conservative?  Yes.  But I also have a libertarian streak because I don’t think you can force people to do things.  For example.  Gay marriage.  If you 2 folks wanna be gay married.  Have at it.  It’s between you and God.  He gives you free will who am I to take it away in such matters. Now do I think that to be sinful? Yes.  But I don’t think we can or should legislate Christian morality down to even tenant. And don’t misunderstand my stance on gay. I do not hate or dislike gay folks. I am a big believer in hate the sin not the sinner.  If we were to hate the sinner then you better hate everyone.

                      Now should the federal government be involved in marriage, gay or otherwise?  No. Just like abortion, they should have no say. I would be fine with them overturning gay marriage so it’s punted to the states but ONLY if they get out of marriage altogether.  It would not be fair to federally endorse one but not the other in my mind. And I do think at this point EVERY state would endorse it.

                      One side or the other should not be using the federal goverment to make their beliefs federal law.  The beauty of the states is they are free to each have their own laws customizing life for their own populations. And I will take that 1 step further.  Big cities should not be enforcing their will on their states.  So San Francisco should not be forcing law on all of California nor should New York City do the same to New York.

                       

                      June 30, 2022 at 7:37 am #274354
                      Mustangride1
                      Moderator

                        If you want to know what the Federal Government should ONLY be doing its in the Constitution, Section 8 powers of Congress.

                        In Brief, this is what they are allowed and required to do:
                        1. Taxation

                        2. Commerce

                        3. Naturalization

                        4. Post Office

                        5. Copyright

                        6. International and Maritime law enforcement

                        7. Make War

                        8. Create laws and regulation to the Above and all they entail.

                         

                        That is it, that is what the Congress (Federal Government) is allowed to do and suppose to do. If you remove the 14th and 16th Amendments, it would stop much of problems we have today. Removing the 16th takes the Taxation ability for “anything” away from Congress and Puts it back to the Founders intent.

                         

                        No place does it say the Federal Government is allowed to be involved in Marriage or Abortion. Not until lawyers perverted the Constitution in the 14th Amendment, which we are seeing the SCOTUS start to reverse back to the Founders intent. Justice as they say moves very slowly though.

                         

                        When I see people say “It’s in the Constitution” I always will say, “show me where it is specifically stated that?” If you cannot then it is not. The reason it is not is the Founders wanted the STATES to have the power to regulate themselves under the Supreme Law of the Land, Psst it’s called the 10th Amendment rights.

                         

                        Now can the PEOPLE in a FEDERAL election make a law for the Nation? Yes. Again 10th amendment right.

                         

                        Now since I brought up the Amendments, it is also very important to note that our Nation would not exist without the Bill of rights first 10 amendments. Those were the guaranties that got everyone Federalist and Anti-Federalist at the time to sign the “Main Body Script” of the US Constitution.

                         

                        That First 10 Amendments are there to tell the Federal Government what it cannot do aka (the rights of the people)

                        By the way their were originally 12 articles NOT 10.

                         

                        Article the first… After the first enumeration required by the first article of the Constitution, there shall be one Representative for every thirty thousand, until the number shall amount to one hundred, after which the proportion shall be so regulated by Congress, that there shall be not less than one hundred Representatives, nor less than one Representative for every forty thousand persons, until the number of Representatives shall amount to two hundred; after which the proportion shall be so regulated by Congress, that there shall not be less than two hundred Representatives, nor more than one Representative for every fifty thousand persons. (Still Pending to this day)

                        Article the second… No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened.(Now the 27th Amendment)

                        Article the third… Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

                        Article the fourth… A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

                        Article the fifth… No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

                        Article the sixth… The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

                        Article the seventh… No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

                        Article the eighth… In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

                        Article the ninth… In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

                        Article the tenth… Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

                        Article the eleventh… The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

                        Article the twelfth… The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

                         

                        Corrupt Politicians and Lawyers (some both) have taken the Federal Government Powers granted it by the Constitution, beyond the intent and Legal powers. Problem is You have to have to get it before the SCOTUS before it can be overturned. There is the problem 1st the long process to get it there, but second the SCOTUS only picks apart small parts of (the challenged section) of the law, instead of a blanket of “If one part of the law is Unconstitutional All Parts are Unconstitutional.” That is what most needs to change.

                         

                        The last part of the problem is activist judges, no congress though they do have the power, wants to start going after Judges. They have not figured out how is the biggest hindrance to them. It actually is not hard to do. If you keep having your verdicts overturned because it is not based on the Constitution then remove them. Here is the honest reason they do not. Would not be a Liberal / Democrat judge left on the bench.

                         

                        Anyway, there you have it. The problem is obvious, the solution is obvious, but the judiciary works slowly.

                         

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